Topping E30 Europe

I have searched all posts on this thread for "DSD" in order to determine whether this unit as currently shipped can handle DSD64, and I have not been able to make that determination. If I ordered an E30 today, would it be able to effectively play DSD64 streams?

I have searched all posts on this thread for "DSD" in order to determine whether this unit as currently shipped can handle DSD64, and I have not been able to make that determination. If I ordered an E30 today, would it be able to effectively play DSD64 streams?

• PCM: 44.1kHz – 768kHz / 16bit – 32bit
• Native DSD: DSD64 – DSD512
• DoP DSD: DSD64 – DSD256

DSD64 works flawlessly for me using Foobar2K.

this guy describes the topping e30 as more spacious sounding and better clarity than the d50s... any thoughts.?

this guy describes the topping e30 as more spacious sounding and better clarity than the d50s... any thoughts.?

from 7:40 to 9:00

this guy describes the topping e30 as more spacious sounding and better clarity than the d50s... any thoughts.?

from 7:40 to 9:00

I have searched all posts on this thread for "DSD" in order to determine whether this unit as currently shipped can handle DSD64, and I have not been able to make that determination. If I ordered an E30 today, would it be able to effectively play DSD64 streams?

ok after an hour of listening, I think almost all modern DS dacs sound the same subjectively. E30 is clean and sounds almost indistinguishable to the d50s especially if not meticulously ABing --- great value indeed -- that's all I can say. I still prefer the lame-measuring modi multibit by a large margin on subjective music listening though.

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum, but was following already for quite a while. This forum and thread helped a lot with my decision to buy the E30, which I received a couple of weeks ago I am quite happy with it so far, but there's one little problem which is a bit annoying. Sometimes there is no audio output, after E30 turned itself on after standby. It's showing the correct input channel, no error displayed, but no output. Only when I switch the E30 off and on again via the remote, sound will play. I have installed the device driver as well as updated to the latest firmware, but the problem also was happening already before. I am using Windows 10 and the E30 is connected by USB.

Has anyone else experienced such a problem?

I have searched all posts on this thread for "DSD" in order to determine whether this unit as currently shipped can handle DSD64, and I have not been able to make that determination. If I ordered an E30 today, would it be able to effectively play DSD64 streams?

The E30 that is currently on the market has improved firmware, and I don't think there is a problem with DSD64.

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum, but was following already for quite a while. This forum and thread helped a lot with my decision to buy the E30, which I received a couple of weeks ago I am quite happy with it so far, but there's one little problem which is a bit annoying. Sometimes there is no audio output, after E30 turned itself on after standby. It's showing the correct input channel, no error displayed, but no output. Only when I switch the E30 off and on again via the remote, sound will play. I have installed the device driver as well as updated to the latest firmware, but the problem also was happening already before. I am using Windows 10 and the E30 is connected by USB.

Has anyone else experienced such a problem?

I searched but found nothing related specifically to the e30. It’s safe to use the standard iPhone charger adapter to power this dac, correct?

I searched but found nothing related specifically to the e30. It’s safe to use the standard iPhone charger adapter to power this dac, correct?

If one order now through Audiophonics.fr it will arrive in Europe in 15 to 25 days, so most likely it will be new production units, with the firmware problema solved.

//www.trustpilot.com/review/www.audiophonics.fr

But if it's possible to pay with PayPal and you have an account, I would say nothing to worry if the purchase isn't time sensitive.

Yes. They are active on this forum too. Plenty of us order there.

I hope they update their prices. Official prices Sundara: $349, Ananda: $699. Audiophonics.fr prices Sundara: 339€, Ananda: 999€

Is the E30 still using its DAC in preamp mode? I have mine hooked up to my TV with an optical cable and I want to confirm it's not just passing the TV's DAC sgnal through.

I searched but found nothing related specifically to the e30. It’s safe to use the standard iPhone charger adapter to power this dac, correct?

The E30 that is currently on the market has improved firmware, and I don't think there is a problem with DSD64.

I searched but found nothing related specifically to the e30. It’s safe to use the standard iPhone charger adapter to power this dac, correct?

I can't say I have experienced that problem with the E30. I have had this in the past on a laptop with a Pro-ject DAC though. It turned out is wasn't the DACS fault , but the Windows settings. There is the possibility that in your Windows settings the USB devices are suspended when they are not used for a period of time. In Windows do the following: Tip 1. Go to Control Panel > Hardware and Sound > Power options Click High Performance Next, click Change Plan Settings Ensure both power options are set to Never 2. Make sure your PC doesn’t suspend your USB devices You don’t want your USB keyboard/drives/soundcards being disabled if you leave your computer for too long. While on the Power Options screen [see tip 1] Click 'Change advanced power settings'; Click the + button next to USB Settings Click the + next to USB Selective suspend settings Double click Enabled > click Disabled

Apply > OK

This webshop is great. Bought from them several times and everything is just great. Exceptional support also.

Thanks. Sorry for the kinda off topic discussion everyone. They seem great but my main problem is i'm aiming to buy Hifiman headphone which has bad qc issues. If i get one of those defective products not sure what is gonna happen

I don't know how interested people here are with subjective sound demos [and yes it doesn't sound identical in real life]. But here is a quick sound comparison between the Schiit Modi Multibit and E30 for anyone who are interested.

Completely useless video. In addition to the child dancing and making annoying noises trying to get daddy's attention, the microphone and/or the inputs are recorded too high distorting the signal. The treble control sounds like it is all the way up.

I don't know how interested people here are with subjective sound demos [and yes it doesn't sound identical in real life]. But here is a quick sound comparison between the Schiit Modi Multibit and E30 for anyone who are interested.

I'm not that surprised if the Schiit sounds different. It wouldn't be a good thing for Schiit Modi Multibit though......

I expected these kind of response its just for fun, though. the relative differences I hear in real life is very much discernible and aligned with what I hear from the video. treble/tone controls are off and are in direct mode. But yeah, its no where near how it sounds in real life, the relative difference between the 2 is what I was trying to capture and if I use a decent headphone to listen, its passable to convey the relative difference.

I expected these kind of response its just for fun, though. the relative differences I hear in real life is very much discernible and aligned with what I hear from the video. treble/tone controls are off and are in direct mode. But yeah, its no where near how it sounds in real life, the relative difference between the 2 is what I was trying to capture and if I use a decent headphone to listen, its passable to convey the relative difference.

And what "relative" difference might that be exactly?

anyway, I thought I was trying to be helpful. you can ignore my video if you feel violated by it ;p

would their really be an audible difference between the d30 and this one? wondering if its worth an upgrade down the road.

unless you want remote volume control, there is no reason to stop using the d30. you won't hear a difference

...
Any ideas if there would be noticeable improvement in sound quality if upgraded from Grace SDAC? [Other components of the system JDS Atom & AKG K712 Pro]...

you can listen for yourself and see if you hear any difference between the two. all external factors like youtube compression, mic/recording quality, methodology remain constant between the 2 dacs in the video so what is left is the relative difference between the 2.

anyway, I thought I was trying to be helpful. you can ignore my video if you feel violated by it ;p

would their really be an audible difference between the d30 and this one? wondering if its worth an upgrade down the road.

you can listen for yourself and see if you hear any difference between the two. all external factors like youtube compression, mic/recording quality, methodology remain constant between the 2 dacs in the video so what is left is the relative difference between the 2.

anyway, I thought I was trying to be helpful. you can ignore my video if you feel violated by it ;p

I don't feel "violated" as you say. I understand trying to be "helpful" and that is fine. However, as it has been noted many times on this and other forums, a comparison of youtube audio streams is an adventure in futility. I fail to understand what the value of listening to a distorted youtube mess is - other than possibly watching a little girl dancing around in this case. No audio quality - subjective or otherwise - can be discerned from this. There is simply not enough resolution to do a meaninful comparison.

Have you considered the possibility that it's precisely the way the Multibit measures [second-order harmonic distortion etc.] that makes you prefer it over the E30? I mean nothing wrong with preferring that, just go all-out tubes or something. But - unless you articulate that to your viewers - I wonder if it's cool to keep recommending the Multibit to everyone..

Anyway, back to the topic, the E30 is actually a great value. I had the topping d50s which was 2x the cost of the e30 and they sound indistinguishable to me [unless your hearing can perceive the difference between ESS & AKM, which again is subjective]

Its true the multibit measures poorly compared to the E30 and I am very much aware of that. I'm pretty sure its not second order harmonics though [but please feel free to correct me], what I do know is the noise floor is higher in the multibit than the E30 and the chip is limited to 16-bit.

Yeah, as you may have noticed this forum isn't the best place for anything with the word 'subjective' in it unless there's data to support those subjective impressions.

I ordered this DAC a few days ago and it apparently dispatched from SHENZHEN AUDIO two days ago [Thursday 14th], are they reliable? They gave me a tracking number but there's no letters in there, it's just a string of numbers so doesn't look like a tracking number, also 4px delivery website can't find the tracking number they gave me. SHENZHEN AUDIO say to me to allow for a couple of days for the system to update, I'm not sure I believe them because the tracking number looks wrong as soon as I saw it. Is SHENZHEN AUDIO reliable or are they scamming or doing some dodgy practices like saying they've dispatched it when clearly they're instead waiting for stock instead, any thoughts or experiences? Ordered through Amazon so you'd think shouldn't be that dodgy, and also SHENZHEN AUDIO have some reasonable customer satisfaction ratings on Amazon.

I ordered this DAC a few days ago and it apparently dispatched from SHENZHEN AUDIO two days ago [Thursday 14th], are they reliable? They gave me a tracking number but there's no letters in there, it's just a string of numbers so doesn't look like a tracking number, also 4px delivery website can't find the tracking number they gave me. SHENZHEN AUDIO say to me to allow for a couple of days for the system to update, I'm not sure I believe them because the tracking number looks wrong as soon as I saw it. Is SHENZHEN AUDIO reliable or are they scamming or doing some dodgy practices like saying they've dispatched it when clearly they're instead waiting for stock instead, any thoughts or experiences? Ordered through Amazon so you'd think shouldn't be that dodgy, and also SHENZHEN AUDIO have some reasonable customer satisfaction ratings on Amazon.

You can rest assured, they are very reliable, one of the most reliable on aliexpress, soon your order arrives.

Robbo99999
This is the order number. The tracking number will appear when the order is sent.

I ordered this DAC a few days ago and it apparently dispatched from SHENZHEN AUDIO two days ago [Thursday 14th], are they reliable? They gave me a tracking number but there's no letters in there, it's just a string of numbers so doesn't look like a tracking number, also 4px delivery website can't find the tracking number they gave me. SHENZHEN AUDIO say to me to allow for a couple of days for the system to update, I'm not sure I believe them because the tracking number looks wrong as soon as I saw it. Is SHENZHEN AUDIO reliable or are they scamming or doing some dodgy practices like saying they've dispatched it when clearly they're instead waiting for stock instead, any thoughts or experiences? Ordered through Amazon so you'd think shouldn't be that dodgy, and also SHENZHEN AUDIO have some reasonable customer satisfaction ratings on Amazon.

Good to hear, I'll wait it out a bit longer to see what happens.

Just curious -- what headphones did you use to observe distortion? I am using Audio Technica MSR7 when I was mixing.
It's true its not the same quality I hear in real life, but as someone who has heard the comparison in person and the recording, I can vouch that what I hear in the recording when I use proper headphones is atleast indicative of the relative difference between the 2 dacs in real life. Anyway, I won't go on to act as a proponent to sound demos, I was just doing it out of boredom. Weather or not you hear a difference and weather or not you believe in youtube sound demos is up to you.

The Schiit Modi Multibit has long been proven to be a low-fidelity, underperforming design which has clever marketing behind it [The clever part being to promoting a line of products while making no claims of accurate sound reproduction]. But that is where it stops, with marketing. I would think the Modi 3 would be a more appropriate comparison since it actually does manage decent DAC performance. However, any reviews and/or comparisons of a subjective nature or claims of magical performance or special properties that require a leap of faith with a healthy dose of psuedo-science will probably not be met with any kind of acceptance of a serious nature around here.

Good to hear, I'll wait it out a bit longer to see what happens.

FWIW I ordered from them via Amazon back in April, I seem to recall the tracking number didn't do much at first either. When I check it now on the 4px site I can see the details, but the dates/times on the history are a bit random and do not look entirely accurate [eg it cleared Heathrow customs at the same time that it was delivered to me]. I remember I could definitely see that it was had arrived in the UK at one point and was with the 'local' courier, next thing I knew was when it landed on my doorstep.

I received my black E30 yesterday [the16th], ordered on the 1st from Apos Audio. CJ at Apos sent me a very apologetic email stating that the black ones weren't in stock and asked if I would like to change my order to the silver one or cancel altogether. I replied I would wait for the black one. He was very helpful and kept in contact during the whole process. 5 stars for CJ and Apos. As for the E30, it provides an audible improvement over my old D10, so I'm happy with it too. With the D10 I could pause a track and raise the volume and I would get hiss and if I moved my mouse I'd get interference from that also. No such problems with the E30 which is dead quiet w hen a track is paused-no matter how high I turn the volume or whether I'm using S/PDIF or USB. I am using a wall wart to power it whereas the D10 was powered by my pc so maybe the pc's 5V rail is where the noise was coming from. I'm still playing with the filters but I'm using #1 for now, #3 is the default. Definitely a worthy addition to my system and the retro amber leds look cool too.

I received my black E30 yesterday [the16th], ordered on the 1st from Apos Audio. CJ at Apos sent me a very apologetic email stating that the black ones weren't in stock and asked if I would like to change my order to the silver one or cancel altogether. I replied I would wait for the black one. He was very helpful and kept in contact during the whole process. 5 stars for CJ and Apos. As for the E30, it provides an audible improvement over my old D10, so I'm happy with it too. With the D10 I could pause a track and raise the volume and I would get hiss and if I moved my mouse I'd get interference from that also. No such problems with the E30 which is dead quiet w hen a track is paused-no matter how high I turn the volume or whether I'm using S/PDIF or USB. I am using a wall wart to power it whereas the D10 was powered by my pc so maybe the pc's 5V rail is where the noise was coming from. I'm still playing with the filters but I'm using #1 for now, #3 is the default. Definitely a worthy addition to my system and the retro amber leds look cool too.

With the D10 I could pause a track and raise the volume and I would get hiss and if I moved my mouse I'd get interference from that also.
maybe the pc's 5V rail is where the noise was coming from.

Not that it really matters, but I was listening through Audio Technica ATH-M50x headphones. Just so I am clear, I did not claim that I could not hear any difference in the video. What I can say with 100% confidence is that any difference that I may or may not have heard are meaningless and marginal at best considering the medium. It has nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in youtube sound demos. It has to do with the understanding of the facts and science behind the medium's capability limits. The other factor is there is no guarantee that these are in fact the DACs being tested or that they have been level-matched. Any differences heard can be easily reproduced by simply adjusting tone controls to achieve the desired effect. It cannot be attributed to either one of these being superior to the other. Any claims like this based on youtube videos are dubious at best.

The Schiit Modi Multibit has long been proven to be a low-fidelity, underperforming design which has clever marketing behind it [The clever part being to promoting a line of products while making no claims of accurate sound reproduction]. But that is where it stops, with marketing. I would think the Modi 3 would be a more appropriate comparison since it actually does manage decent DAC performance. However, any reviews and/or comparisons of a subjective nature or claims of magical performance or special properties that require a leap of faith with a healthy dose of psuedo-science will probably not be met with any kind of acceptance of a serious nature around here.

Any new info on L30 ? When is it gonna ship ?

E30 ordered from Audiophonics. Now waiting for being on stock again.

OK finally got one of these...
I paid £105 [shipping included] on eBay via seller 'wsz0304' and it took 16 days to reach the UK, there were no additional customs charges. The E30 is built really nicely, certainly looks a lot less 'DIY' than my D10. It shipped with 1.06 Firmware, I tried to update this using Parallels on my Mac, I got the driver installed, but the Firmware installataion failed every time I tried it... If anyone's managed to do this any help would be appreciated! Re the sample change 'click', trust me, if you're using an integrated amp, or a pre/power, you are not going to be bothered by this.

One thing that is a bit strange, according to the iOS app 'Mobile Tools by AudioControl' the polarity on the E30 [and my D10] are reversed, both negative polarity. I thought this may be something else downstream, but tested the headphone jack on my MBP and also a Chord Mojo, and they both register as positive polarity with the same amp and speakers.

...
I paid £105 [shipping included] on eBay via seller 'wsz0304' and it took 16 days to reach the UK, there were no additional customs charges...

I would say you just got lucky with customs. Anyone else had the same experience?

I bought mine on Amazon from Schenzhan Audio and I read the 'Terms & Conditions' and I'm not expecting to pay any additional tax, my understanding is that is factored into the total price. [It hasn't arrived yet, I ordered it last week].

I bought my Topping stuff through Amazon [Shenzhen] and didn't have to pay any excess. Tempted to get E30 but still contemplating

I think wsz0304 and Shenzhen Audio are one and the same, and I'm reasonably sure the method to avoid duty will be the same too.

I have heard there may be some kind of DX5 this year [I assume D50/A50[s] inspired combo unit, but not sure if this will be an upgrade or more of a sidegrade to the DX7 Pro or this E30/L30 stack. Still patiently waiting for the "DX9 Pro" myself.

I think wsz0304 and Shenzhen Audio are one and the same, and I'm reasonably sure the method to avoid duty will be the same too.

It shipped with 1.06 Firmware, I tried to update this using Parallels on my Mac, I got the driver installed, but the Firmware installataion failed every time I tried it... If anyone's managed to do this any help would be appreciated!

OK finally got one of these...
I paid £105 [shipping included] on eBay via seller 'wsz0304' and it took 16 days to reach the UK, there were no additional customs charges. The E30 is built really nicely, certainly looks a lot less 'DIY' than my D10. It shipped with 1.06 Firmware, I tried to update this using Parallels on my Mac, I got the driver installed, but the Firmware installataion failed every time I tried it... If anyone's managed to do this any help would be appreciated! Re the sample change 'click', trust me, if you're using an integrated amp, or a pre/power, you are not going to be bothered by this.

One thing that is a bit strange, according to the iOS app 'Mobile Tools by AudioControl' the polarity on the E30 [and my D10] are reversed, both negative polarity. I thought this may be something else downstream, but tested the headphone jack on my MBP and also a Chord Mojo, and they both register as positive polarity with the same amp and speakers.

i got mine from apos, ordered 15 days ago and just got it today, black color was out of stock for about 10 days, got a 30 bucks refund and upgraded shipping.

I have heard there may be some kind of DX5 this year [I assume D50/A50[s] inspired combo unit, but not sure if this will be an upgrade or more of a sidegrade to the DX7 Pro or this E30/L30 stack. Still patiently waiting for the "DX9 Pro" myself.

One thing that is a bit strange, according to the iOS app 'Mobile Tools by AudioControl' the polarity on the E30 [and my D10] are reversed, both negative polarity. I thought this may be something else downstream, but tested the headphone jack on my MBP and also a Chord Mojo, and they both register as positive polarity with the same amp and speakers.

That's very interesting. Why aren't we testing the polarity of DACs?

I think mine is inverted too.

OK finally got one of these...
I paid £105 [shipping included] on eBay via seller 'wsz0304' and it took 16 days to reach the UK, there were no additional customs charges. The E30 is built really nicely, certainly looks a lot less 'DIY' than my D10. It shipped with 1.06 Firmware, I tried to update this using Parallels on my Mac, I got the driver installed, but the Firmware installataion failed every time I tried it... If anyone's managed to do this any help would be appreciated! Re the sample change 'click', trust me, if you're using an integrated amp, or a pre/power, you are not going to be bothered by this.

One thing that is a bit strange, according to the iOS app 'Mobile Tools by AudioControl' the polarity on the E30 [and my D10] are reversed, both negative polarity. I thought this may be something else downstream, but tested the headphone jack on my MBP and also a Chord Mojo, and they both register as positive polarity with the same amp and speakers.

I played that signal and it came out as positive polarity. Then I manually reversed it using JRiver Media Centre Parametric Equalizer, and it came out as negative, confirming that the app works reliably.

I am! It's weird though, Topping must go to great lengths to get so much of these little DACs so right [the hard stuff] and then mess up on something so simple [at least twice!]... Obviously there's a lot of debate on whether anyone can actually hear the difference between +/- [as long as both channels are the same], but it's strange thing to do anyway.

considering returning the unit now as i dont want to wire up cables to flip the outputs for analogue recording etc

What the hell topping, what possible reason could justify not picking up and correcting this at pre production ?

I'd like to know the reason for that.

Me too, considering I am waiting for mine to arrive!

I just checked my D70 and it is positive polarity. I assume you downloaded the Speaker Pop Test Signals Zip file from here: //studiosixdigital.com/support/downloads-2/speaker-pop-signals.zip

Yep I used the 'Speaker Pop Test Signal .wav format' file. And yep, tried the 'invert polarity' preference in both Audirvana and BitPerfect, and it does indeed change the polarity from - to +.
I'm sure this is probably fixable via firmware, but since firmware updates are PC only, that's not useful to me. @Topping: please please please make an OSX version of these firmware updates.

Topping reps, please advise if this can be corrected in firmware ? It would save me a product return and overall disappointment

[although i suspect it requires an additional op amp in the analogue stage]

16 days is reasonable. I ordered mine from AliExpress and it's already been 15 days. Still "handed over to airlines". Looking forward to using it as a preamp for some active speakers.

Hello, new member here, signed up as I recently purchased the E30 after seeing the test reports here and been closely following the thread. i have a background in pro audio [recording, mixing mastering] and electronics hobyist for over 40 years. Unfortunately I can confirm the above is true, i made a recording of a file directly from the outputs of the e30 to my sony PCM D100 and the recorded stereo file when viewed in DAW compared to the original file was inverted polarity... I am absolutely gobsmacked that the design could make it to production with such a fundamental 'flaw' regardless if its audible or not its the inverse of what the digital source bits say it should be.

considering returning the unit now as i dont want to wire up cables to flip the outputs for analogue recording etc

I was all excited about jumping in on a very new product that tested so well but feel quite burned now as an early adopter to find out this DAC is inverting the outputs a month later

What the hell topping, what possible reason could justify not picking up and correcting this at pre production ?

Hmmm, can anyone check the D50s for the polarity issue? I can get that locally here in Japan.

Can anyone explain polarity issue ELI5

Still, once you know it's 'wrong' it certainly has the potential to become one of those niggling annoynaces.

What is the problem i don't get it. Can it affect the simple listening experience ?

//forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...-polarity-besides-the-stereo-revolver.301436/

Even if it's not audible in simple terms it sucks...

The problem for me is specific, when recording the outputs of the E30 you end up with an inverted stereo recording... this is a process integrity issue that can be corrected in audio software [but not if you are recording to tape/analogue], but is a a pain/additional step and would be an embarrassing mistake to unwittingly make on a client project delivery some claim to be able to hear it but even in my capacity as a mastering engineer with 2 commercial releases I can't hear a difference... but as an example of what can occur and why it's important the 2009 stereo remaster CD of the Beatles Revolvef was accidentally inverted and was corrected for the USB and following releases, here's a link full of discussion RE -

//forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...-polarity-besides-the-stereo-revolver.301436/

Even if it's not audible in simple terms it sucks...

I meant to say thank you to the user that discovered and reported the inverterted polarity output issue in this thread, in my haste to join and contribute I forgot my manners... iI have enjoyed reading ASR forum the last month, cheers all !

When speaker should push out, instead it goes in. You'd think this would *really* mess with things, but apparently it's very difficult to detect [with your ears at least].
Still, once you know it's 'wrong' it certainly has the potential to become one of those niggling annoynaces.

It took mine a little over 3 weeks, so get comfortable if you're used to 10 - 14 days delivery from China.

I'm very interested to see how Topping addresses this reverse polarity issue.

Another problem detected? the analysis impressed me, it seemed too good to be true ... It seems that there was a lack of attention to topping in the final tests before launch.

40 days and I still haven't received mine, with these news I start to regret it.

Another problem detected? the analysis impressed me, it seemed too good to be true ... It seems that there was a lack of attention to topping in the final tests before launch.

40 days and I still haven't received mine, with these news I start to regret it.

No update from Topping reps on this ?

This has been a known issue with the D10 apparently. I don't own a D10 but if it doesn't have a FW correction by now, wouldn't the E30 be unfixable too? I do own the E30.

What in the hell? Are we doing this again? It's been debunked countless times the polarity is not an issue. It's inaudible. To test this you can easily invert the polarity in any DAW and do a blind test for yourself.

What in the hell? Are we doing this again? It's been debunked countless times the polarity is not an issue. It's inaudible. To test this you can easily invert the polarity in any DAW and do a blind test for yourself.

I don't think many will worry about the effect on sound, but some may use this in a recording setup. There is also the question as to WHY it was done in the first place. Was it due to poor quality checks, or was there a specific technical reason for it.

Just invert in the digital domain it's fine. And sure we can try to investigate and try to fix it. But it's not an issue. And shouldn't prevent any people from enjoying. This was simply not a thing to care about in the design I suppose. As long the left and right polarity is consistent.

I don't think many will worry about the effect on sound, but some may use this in a recording setup. There is also the question as to WHY it was done in the first place. Was it due to poor quality checks, or was there a specific technical reason for it.

It's not even an issue. You guys are focusing on microscopic problems, which is deterring people from buying it.

I really hope this is firmware fixable as it would be unfortunate to have to recall the already issued units. I agree that it is difficult to hear the difference between the two polarities, but there is an audible difference nevertheless. I have owned a DAC with a polarity switch and on some songs the difference was more pronounced than the others. It is just as noticeable as the difference between various filter choices on AKM or ESS DACs. I own the D70 which does not have this issue, but if it did, I would not be happy with having to invert in the digital domain. Especially for using it with non-PC sources, like the PS4 Pro for example, which does not have the option of inverting the polarity. Ultimately though, Topping has made its name by creating products that are properly engineered, measure great and sound good. Leaving this bug unfixed is not an option for a company of this reputation. It is great that a Topping rep is active on these forums, and I am expecting that they will be able to provide a fix one way or another. In terms of people/competitors taking shots at Topping products and nitpicking about various things - I don't see this a bad thing necessarily. Firstly, it attests to the fact that Topping is officially in the big leagues now where people see them as a legitimate competitor. Secondly, if Topping internalizes this criticism properly, it can actually help improve their processes and products. Look what happened to Schiit as a result of all the ASR attention - they are producing even better sounding [and measuring] products now.

Edit: JohnYang1997 said that a firmware fix will be provided while I was typing this. Awesome customer support!

"You guys are focusing on microscopic problems, "

I thought that was the mission statement Now if it were inaudible 2nd harmonics then that would be something to get upset about

It's not even an issue. You guys are focusing on microscopic problems, which is deterring people from buying it.

A firmware fix would be the perfect outcome

Is anyone familiar with jriver? Is the "reverse the polarity of this speaker" option under DSP / Room Correction the right fix? [Maybe not - it sounds strange when ticked ]

I'm all for the fix if it's nothing to put out, just don't want this to become a thread of bad press for the product.

1, Corrected signal polarity.

Firmware cannot be updated using MAC.
Complain to Apple.

Topping is not going to write XMOS DFU software for Mac, they are not a software company ....

Is it Apple's fault that Topping sold me a DAC with inverted polarity?
Thousands of companies write firmware updates for both PC and Mac, Topping could do this, but they are choosing not too, that is not Apple's problem. A fix for only PC users is not a fix.

Is it Apple's fault that Topping sold me a DAC with inverted polarity?
Thousands of companies write firmware updates for both PC and Mac, Topping could do this, but they are choosing not too, that is not Apple's problem. A fix for only PC users is not a fix.

But it is Apple that gives the tool permission. There is a big wall there.

This is a guess from the information I got XMOS DFU update tools for Topping and SMSL are provided by XMOS. Of course, you should be able to easily prepare a tool for MAC too.

But it is Apple that gives the tool permission. There is a big wall there.

Thesycon provides also USB DFU tool for Windows and Mac.

Topping is not going to write XMOS DFU software for Mac, they are not a software company ....

It's nothing to do with being a 'software company' - it's a business decision. Someone has made the judgement that the cost of upsetting a subset of potential/actual customers is less than the cost of having the updater developed.

I am in transition from D10 to E30 so I would like to know if the polarity issue of D10 has also been addressed with firmware apdate?
It may be off topic here, but I cannot find any reference to it.

Thank you again for listening to us and such incredible speed to resolve, kudos to you and your team.

FYI - I am currently listening to the E30 on FW 1.08 with no issues to report

can anyone confirm that the polarity is now positive after update? I still get negative on Mobile Tools Audio Control [via optical using a bluetooth receiver with optical out]

You guys, stop making me paranoid I just tested the optical input on my D70 and the polarity is correct. By the way, this Youtube video is even easier to do the test with as it keeps switching polarities so you can easily see if your phone app is in sync with it or not:

As far as I know, Topping XMOS drivers are paid, personalized Thesycon drivers.
Thesycon provides also USB DFU tool for Windows and Mac.
I suppose Topping do not pay for both, but only for Windows tool.

Apple also does not allow the installation of required USB drivers. Only the USB driver prepared by the OS in advance is allowed to be used. If the E30 was an Apple product, there would be no problem. Apple is such a company, both good and bad.

This update is a firmware update for USB connection, COAX and OPT may not have been related.

It's nothing to do with being a 'software company' - it's a business decision. Someone has made the judgement that the cost of upsetting a subset of potential/actual customers is less than the cost of having the updater developed.

90% of the world is using Windows. 7% of the world is using MAC. Of those 7% how many people are using a Topping DAC? It takes 3 minutes on a Windows computer to do this update. You can't tell me you are upset because you have to borrow a Windows computer for 3 minutes. There must be plenty of people around you who own one you can borrow. You are making a big deal out of nothing. There are more important things in live to get upset about.

FWIW I'm a mostly happy Windows user myself.

Do those stats include all those office PCs which are of dubious relevance to the topic at hand?

FWIW I'm a mostly happy Windows user myself.

This update is a firmware update for USB connection, COAX and OPT may not have been related.

I'm with you that update was done through USB interface but shouldn't the update affect the DAC as a whole and not just the interface from which it used to update the device?

Of course those stats don't include that. Also those stats do not include MACS on the topic at hand. That is completely besides the point isn't it? I was reacting to someone who got upset that there is no firmware updater for the MAC. I wasn't even reacting to you.

Come over here and help us sorting it out The XMOS upgrader is a sub component from the package of the driver provider. I haven't seen anyone else done it yet. Please inform me my friend.

I should probably see about getting generic XMOS support added to fwupd which would make it much easier for manufacturers to support updates on linux.

some subjective observations:

• negative polarity sounds thinner on my 2-channel system compared to the positive/fixed one. [Dynaudio Speakers]
• Now after the update, when I use USB, it sounds fuller with the soundstage projecting forward.
• When I use optical [with presumably negative polarity], the soundstage is flat and doesn't project forward, but wider, and kinda sounds leaner

Of course those stats don't include that. Also those stats do not include MACS on the topic at hand. That is completely besides the point isn't it? I was reacting to someone who got upset that there is no firmware updater for the MAC. I wasn't even reacting to you.

In USA, majority of my coworkers are Mac only users except a few PC gamers. Borrowing a PC from someone else I feel very unreasonable. I hesitate to install 3rd party software on my main computer needless to say allowing other people installing drivers. My latest laptop [surface pro x] is arm based which cannot install drivers at all.

I hope that ARM would gain more popularity and companies would target Windows 10 ARM too.

I'm with you that update was done through USB interface but shouldn't the update affect the DAC as a whole and not just the interface from which it used to update the device?

Please read #687

There are two main types of DAC firmware. One is firmware related to USB connection, which rewrites the control program in the XMOS chip. This update of Ver1.08 is an update of this part, and users can do it using a PC. The other is the firmware of the controller called MCU. The MCU is a small one-chip PC and is in charge of controlling the DAC. A special tool is required to update this firmware, and it must be returned to the factory. Unfortunately, the user cannot update this firmware.

Please read #687

I think you can compile XMOS DFU loader for Mac.
This guide can help you. The source could be downloaded from here.
Also, here is a topic about that.

There are two main types of DAC firmware. One is firmware related to USB connection, which rewrites the control program in the XMOS chip. This update of Ver1.08 is an update of this part, and users can do it using a PC. The other is the firmware of the controller called MCU. The MCU is a small one-chip PC and is in charge of controlling the DAC. A special tool is required to update this firmware, and it must be returned to the factory. Unfortunately, the user cannot update this firmware.

Please read #687

There's a nice D70 on a second-hand website here that I've been looking at.... It's almost 4 times the price, though. Sigh... I have to think about this one.

You must have a friend with a Windows computer somewhere. It is just a one time thing. 90% of the world is using Windows. 7% of the world is using MAC. So the odds are very big you know someone with a Windows laptop you can use for 2 minutes.

Just add one of these after it: //www.audiophonics.fr/en/prea...ve-6j1-stereo-preamplifier-black-p-10995.html It will invert the signal again

Or if you don't want that sweet sweet tube sound Use L-4E6S microphone cable for your interconnect and only ground the shield on one side and use both blues for center and both whites for outside on the source side and both blues for outside and both whites for center on the destination side. Ohh, maybe there is a market for that; I could make inverting interconnects.

Damnit all! Now I'm going to have to get a d50s locally and send the e30 back. All this waiting for nothing. I don't even have it yet.

There's a nice D70 on a second-hand website here that I've been looking at.... It's almost 4 times the price, though. Sigh... I have to think about this one.

Just add one of these after it: //www.audiophonics.fr/en/prea...ve-6j1-stereo-preamplifier-black-p-10995.html It will invert the signal again

Or if you don't want that sweet sweet tube sound Use L-4E6S microphone cable for your interconnect and only ground the shield on one side and switch which color wires go to ground on each end.

It's a one time thing...until the next time, and the one after that... plus in the current environment it's easier said than done. Avoiding that arsing about has a value which may swing a purchasing decision.

I still think you make a big deal out of nothing.

This update is a firmware update for USB connection, COAX and OPT may not have been related.

I tried testing USB via PC : downloading the pop test file //studiosixdigital.com/support/downloads-2/speaker-pop-signals.zip It shows positive. But if I use Optical it still shows up as negative [using bluetooth receiver with optical out]. FYI, I also tested before flashing and it was already negative via optical

One thing i have not done is measure via USB prior to flashing

You are correct.

Since this is an update for XMOS firmware, the polarity is only re-reversed for USB input. The coax and toslink input bypass the XMOS hence the polarity is remain inverted for those two inputs. We don't consider this as an issue but an fulfill to a demand from the users. I'm doing my best helping.

Thank you for being so quick to reply and get a partial remedy organised to this "problem". I am not 100% I am going to need to worry about it, but no doubt my mind will play tricks on me....

There were measurements done that almost half of the IEMs measured had polarity inverted. And many DACs have inverted polarity too.

Based on your response last time I brought this up I assumed you weren't using the standard XMOS update process. The suggestion I linked there worked for Khadas [their code is on github and almost identical to the XMOS example code], but is CLI only. I'm not a Mac user and I know there have been updates to the OS since, so it's possible they've blocked that now, but it's still fine for linux. I can understand why you'd not want to ask most customers to use a CLI though - given that Khadas also do SBCs using linux they probably have different expectations of their customers. I assume your driver provider is Thesycon, who claim to have DFU GUIs for Mac and linux as well as Windows. Does theirs not actually work as advertised?

I should probably see about getting generic XMOS support added to fwupd which would make it much easier for manufacturers to support updates on linux.

Also all the subjective positive youtube review of the e30 saying it has more details and wider sound stage than the d50s is probably because of the inverted polarity. I can confirm this, its noticeably fuller sounding now on USB.[which is great but now I have to live with a thinner sounding optical/coax interface]

The polarity inversion is not really a big deal for home listening at all. If you have a speaker, more likely than not the woofer and tweeter’s polarities are already inverted with respect to each other anyways.

You are correct.

Since this is an update for XMOS firmware, the polarity is only re-reversed for USB input. The coax and toslink input bypass the XMOS hence the polarity is remain inverted for those two inputs. We don't consider this as an issue but an fulfill to a demand from the users. I'm doing my best helping.

Highly doubt this is due to anything more than placebo, unless your speakers/headphones have significant asymmetrical nonlinearities.

I was about to return the e30 before the firmware update because I just didn't like the lean sound on my setup compared to my other dac. Now it sounds great. Since this is a science forum, I would actually love to know why this is the case. I even recorded the difference and it is even discernible using basic phone camera.

You are correct.

Since this is an update for XMOS firmware, the polarity is only re-reversed for USB input. The coax and toslink input bypass the XMOS hence the polarity is remain inverted for those two inputs. We don't consider this as an issue but an fulfill to a demand from the users. I'm doing my best helping.

In my case I wanted to buy the e30, but I wanted built-in Bluetooth otherwise I would have purchased. Obviously the entrance that I use 97% of the time is the USB xmos or on a PC or raspberry PI, so the coaxial and the optics are for secondary devices and would not have bothered me in the least. I think the reviews are too hard and do not take into account the reality, which is that the product quality and that there is a correction easy to install, and for the people of Mac, if you do know person to lend you a PC Windows, this is an opportunity to you find new friends ... LOL

I think you can compile XMOS DFU loader for Mac.
This guide can help you. The source could be downloaded from here.
Also, here is a topic about that.

/* the device's vendor and product id */ #define XMOS_VID 0x20b1 #define XMOS_XCORE_AUDIO_AUDIO2_PID 0x3066 #define XMOS_L1_AUDIO2_PID 0x0002 #define XMOS_L1_AUDIO1_PID 0x0003 #define XMOS_L2_AUDIO2_PID 0x0004 #define XMOS_SU1_AUDIO2_PID 0x0008 #define XMOS_U8_MFA_AUDIO2_PID 0x000A

Actually, there's no harm in experimenting with the "--upload" flag. That just reads the current firmware. Changing the VID and PID alone clearly do not suffice:

$ ./E30_dfu_tool --upload currentfirmware.bin VID = 0x152a, PID = 0x8750, BCDDevice: 0x106 Could not find/open device

May I ask, was this intentional? It seems the D70 doesn't have reversed polarity from these inputs. Are you aware of the D50s having inverted polarity?

Also all the subjective positive youtube review of the e30 saying it has more details and wider sound stage than the d50s is probably because of the inverted polarity. I can confirm this, its noticeably fuller sounding now on USB.[which is great but now I have to live with a thinner sounding optical/coax interface]

Also very relived to hear the D50s is the correct polarity. Whew ....

Hello, new member here. Has anyone bought the E30 from Shenzhenaudio? I ordered and paid on May 13, 2020 but nothing is happening. My order still says unfulfilled. Are they out of stock? or is it to do with E30 issues that have been coming up that I have seen in this forum. I know they say 1 to 3 business days for quality control but it is past that. I sent an email yesterday about my order but have not received a response yet.

We are talking firmware here. A firmware update happens once or twice. If Windows computers where nowhere to be found you had a point. But we are talking a 2 minute action here on machines easily obtainable all around you. Most brands of DACS I know only deliver their firmware updates on Windows. So is that a reason not to buy any DAC at all? And, as already said, you partly have to blame Apple for that too, because they don't make it exactly easy for a manufacturer. BTW Topping has provided a fix for this phase inverted issue very quickly within 1 or 2 days. You could compliment them for that [and for listening to their customers] instead of complaining. It will take you 2 minutes to apply this fix. I had a much more expensive Pro-ject DAC. It took them half a year to fix something much more serious [they only provided an installer for Windows too].

I still think you make a big deal out of nothing.

I applaud Topping and @JohnYang1997 for being a whole load more responsive than most manufacturers, and what looks like a trend of improving performance at falling prices - this is great to see. It doesn't mean I won't ask for improvements in other areas - it's up to them to judge whether or not it's worth the cost, just like any other customer request.

My first post. I've just received my E30 and not even set it up yet. I will only ever use optical toslink input [then into Cambridge topaz amp then speakers]. Can someone confirm if this will sound worse than USB? Not sure whether to return before opening or if it will still sound as good as the many reviews indicate?

My first post. I've just received my E30 and not even set it up yet. I will only ever use optical toslink input [then into Cambridge topaz amp then speakers]. Can someone confirm if this will sound worse than USB? Not sure whether to return before opening or if it will still sound as good as the many reviews indicate?

The other question is whether or not you can hear the difference with music anyway. The archimago post metioned by @Tup3x presents it quite well with a verifiable test taht you could try for yourself. In that case at least, with synthetic test tones the difference can be reliably detected in ABX testing, but with an instrument with an asymmetric waveform [so is more likely to be detectable] the difference couldn't be reliably heard. Perhaps with some synth-heavy music it will be audible.

I assume this is in relation to the 'absolute phase' question, and the firmware update that fixes it for USB but not optical or coax. The reviews were done before anyone spotted this, so out of the box it should sound as reviewed. As to whether it's 'right' in your system, you'd need to check whether the amp and speakers preserve absolute phase too - not all of them will.

The other question is whether or not you can hear the difference with music anyway. The archimago post metioned by @Tup3x presents it quite well with a verifiable test taht you could try for yourself. In that case at least, with synthetic test tones the difference can be reliably detected in ABX testing, but with an instrument with an asymmetric waveform [so is more likely to be detectable] the difference couldn't be reliably heard. Perhaps with some synth-heavy music it will be audible.

Hi all, Here is my attempt to capture the difference between old and new firmware. I tried my best to level match. Also there are no tone controls used - The Amp [Onkyo 9150] is running Direct Mode in both scenarios. Speakers are Dynaudio X18. My recording gear is nothing special -- just want to demonstrate that lossy recording + lossy youtube can atleast still partially convey the difference I am subjectively hearing. It seems I hear it more in the mid-bass/bass region. There is more richness in tone in the Positive polarity / New firmware. While the old one is clean and clear with the perception of more detail. Again, i'm not forcing this to anyone, just sharing my observations.

I assume this is in relation to the 'absolute phase' question, and the firmware update that fixes it for USB but not optical or coax. The reviews were done before anyone spotted this, so out of the box it should sound as reviewed. As to whether it's 'right' in your system, you'd need to check whether the amp and speakers preserve absolute phase too - not all of them will.

The other question is whether or not you can hear the difference with music anyway. The archimago post metioned by @Tup3x presents it quite well with a verifiable test taht you could try for yourself. In that case at least, with synthetic test tones the difference can be reliably detected in ABX testing, but with an instrument with an asymmetric waveform [so is more likely to be detectable] the difference couldn't be reliably heard. Perhaps with some synth-heavy music it will be audible.

Archimago post only tested on headphone. One hypothesis the audible difference can be caused by Doppler effect. This most likely only affect speaker because the frequency change is a function of speed of movement.

Hi all, Here is my attempt to capture the difference between old and new firmware. I tried my best to level match. Also there are no tone controls used - The Amp [Onkyo 9150] is running Direct Mode in both scenarios. Speakers are Dynaudio X18. My recording gear is nothing special -- just want to demonstrate that lossy recording + lossy youtube can atleast still partially convey the difference I am subjectively hearing. It seems I hear it more in the mid-bass/bass region. There is more richness in tone in the Positive polarity / New firmware. While the old one is clean and clear with the perception of more detail. Again, i'm not forcing this to anyone, just sharing my observations.

I suppose you used usb. Also the differences could be more noticeable if you put a few seconds off each test side by side instead of running them on a longer period of time.

Hello, new member here. Has anyone bought the E30 from Shenzhenaudio? I ordered and paid on May 13, 2020 but nothing is happening. My order still says unfulfilled. Are they out of stock? or is it to do with E30 issues that have been coming up that I have seen in this forum. I know they say 1 to 3 business days for quality control but it is past that. I sent an email yesterday about my order but have not received a response yet.

Changing the VID and PID alone clearly do not suffice:

$ ./E30_dfu_tool --upload currentfirmware.bin VID = 0x152a, PID = 0x8750, BCDDevice: 0x106 Could not find/open device

$ sudo ./E30_dfu_tool --upload currentfirmware.bin VID = 0x152a, PID = 0x8750, BCDDevice: 0x106 E30 DFU application started - Interface 2 claimed Detaching device from application mode. Waiting for device to restart and enter DFU mode... VID = 0x152a, PID = 0x8750, BCDDevice: 0x106 ... DFU firmware upgrade device opened ... Uploading image [currentfirmware.bin] from device ... Returning device to application mode $

Ulp! Here goes:

$ sudo ./E30_dfu_tool --download E30_V108_dfu_20E.bin VID = 0x152a, PID = 0x8750, BCDDevice: 0x106 E30 DFU application started - Interface 2 claimed Detaching device from application mode. Waiting for device to restart and enter DFU mode... VID = 0x152a, PID = 0x8750, BCDDevice: 0x106 ... DFU firmware upgrade device opened ... Downloading image [E30_V108_dfu_20E.bin] to device ... Download complete ... Returning device to application mode $

This was under Linux, 'cuz my E30 is hooked up to a Raspberry Pi3B+ streamer. Should work just the same under Macos, but I make no promises.

Hi all, Here is my attempt to capture the difference between old and new firmware. I tried my best to level match. Also there are no tone controls used - The Amp [Onkyo 9150] is running Direct Mode in both scenarios. Speakers are Dynaudio X18. My recording gear is nothing special -- just want to demonstrate that lossy recording + lossy youtube can atleast still partially convey the difference I am subjectively hearing. It seems I hear it more in the mid-bass/bass region. There is more richness in tone in the Positive polarity / New firmware. While the old one is clean and clear with the perception of more detail. Again, i'm not forcing this to anyone, just sharing my observations.

Just a thought -- is it possible to flash an old firmware and just reverse the polarity of my speaker cables? Anyone knowledgeable who can confirm this in theory? I just prefer to have all inputs have the correct polarity since, atleast in my system, the improvement was beyond subtle.

Just a thought -- is it possible to flash an old firmware and just reverse the polarity of my speaker cables? Anyone knowledgeable who can confirm this in theory?

I would love to see a comparison of the detailed measurements of the new vs the original firmware, would it be interesting, would @amirm be possible?

Just a thought -- is it possible to flash an old firmware and just reverse the polarity of my speaker cables? Anyone knowledgeable who can confirm this in theory? I just prefer to have all inputs have the correct polarity since, atleast in my system, the improvement was beyond subtle.

Just a thought -- is it possible to flash an old firmware and just reverse the polarity of my speaker cables? Anyone knowledgeable who can confirm this in theory? I just prefer to have all inputs have the correct polarity since, atleast in my system, the improvement was beyond subtle.

@topping @JohnYang1997 how can I roll-back to the previous firmware? I guess I'll just reverse my speaker cables. I hope you can share a link of previous firmware. Thanks in advance

Just a thought -- is it possible to flash an old firmware and just reverse the polarity of my speaker cables? Anyone knowledgeable who can confirm this in theory? I just prefer to have all inputs have the correct polarity since, atleast in my system, the improvement was beyond subtle.

thanks! found it. Has anyone been able to flash an older firmware over a new one? [could not find factory reset from the tool] Im just cautious of bricking it.

thanks! found it. Has anyone been able to flash an older firmware over a new one? [could not find factory reset from the tool] Im just cautious of bricking it.

Or you could do it in software. Dunno what music software you use, but any program with even the most rudimentary DSP capability will allow you to invert a PCM signal.

I think adding absolute polarity test might be a good thing to add to the tests for future devices, so users can decide for themselves if it matters.... fwiw we could debate adnauseam the audibility of absolute polarity where my only concern is sample/waveform integrity at the output... we dont have the same acoustic space, amps, speakers etc, so anything we hear can not necessarily be replicated or shared without recordings. if the bits say this is a positive edge leading waveform, I want the DAC to do that, not the inverse, doesnt matter to me if I can hear it or not. My job requires this, I don't think that's too much to ask... inverted polarity at the oututs is a legacy of tube amps and transformer design where by their nature signals would be inverted and you neeeded to add an aditional unity gain stage to correct for this [so for the sake of cost and noise it wasn't done as often] when we entered the trasistor and IC era absolute polarity in audio could be maintained cheaply and relitively noise free not to mention transistors dont invert the signal by default as do tube amp designs. Yes some equipment inverts the signal polarity but not because it doesn't matter, maily due to limitations of the desin, cost or noise consideratios of the era.

So, absolute polarity in my opinion is not simply a nice to have, but should always be the default result objective to strive for in a modern design... mistakes in design happen but let's not suggest signal integrty is not important and doesn't matter... it does matter even if you cannot hear it, a positive leading edge is a positive leading edge.

Additional: in my experience with the E30 so far, until the ASR user that mentioned the inverted output, I did not notice and thought the E30 sounded excellent, stunning even. To my ears it's fantastic. As i mentioned in an earlier post some claim to be able to hear absolute polarity change but multiple dbl blindfold tests have failed to confirm this... in all my years of pro audio work so far ncluding tracking, mixing and mastering work I have been able to detect all manner of acoustic anomolies, comb filtering phase coherence and cancellation issues, simple phase and other oddities, but I cannot honestly hear absolute polarity when flipped on tthe gear I have tested on. If you stop and think about it, if a speaker or headphone perfomed adversely in the negative component of a waveform, and had increased distortion during the negative waveform component then we would be in serious trouble ...trying to reproduce anything close to a sine wave would be impossible, thanfully speakers work equally well in both directions and so we get nice clean [enough] sound reproduction.... so by their nature if absolute polarity was audible it would logically be in oppostion to physics and the very fact a speaker can work at all to fairhfully reproduce a non distorted sound that has both an equally complex positive and negative component. In short if the negative wave component was somehow reproduced with inferior quality, speakers on the whole wouldn't work so well in practice. So I think the E30 sounds excellent with both the correct and inverted polarity output. I thank Toppings efforts to correct the output absolute polarity It would be great for integrity sake to have correct polarity on all inputs

I dont think it effects the sound but as stated multiple times I do think it matters

Additional: in my experience with the E30 so far, until the ASR user that mentioned the inverted output, I did not notice and thought the E30 sounded excellent, stunning even. To my ears it's fantastic. As i mentioned in an earlier post some claim to be able to hear absolute polarity change but multiple dbl blindfold tests have failed to confirm this... in all my years of pro audio work so far ncluding tracking, mixing and mastering work I have been able to detect all manner of acoustic anomolies, comb filtering phase coherence and cancellation issues, simple phase and other oddities, but I cannot honestly hear absolute polarity when flipped on tthe gear I have tested on. If you stop and think about it, if a speaker or headphone perfomed adversely in the negative component of a waveform, and had increased distortion during the negative waveform component then we would be in serious trouble ...trying to reproduce anything close to a sine wave would be impossible, thanfully speakers work equally well in both directions and so we get nice clean [enough] sound reproduction.... so by their nature if absolute polarity was audible it would logically be in oppostion to physics and the very fact a speaker can work at all to fairhfully reproduce a non distorted sound that has both an equally complex positive and negative component. In short if the negative wave component was somehow reproduced with inferior quality, speakers on the whole wouldn't work so well in practice. So I think the E30 sounds excellent with both the correct and inverted polarity output. I thank Toppings efforts to correct the output absolute polarity It would be great for integrity sake to have correct polarity on all inputs

I dont think it effects the sound but as stated multiple times I do think it matters

I agreed for the most part. But I disagree on that polarity is audible is against physics. Because a simple phone app can detect it easily.

[not trying to offend, just that was my whole point about not being able to hear a flipped polarity waveform delta]

No, thats detectable wave polarity, doesnt make it an audible artifact. You can view a waveform in an audio editor, flip it vertically [polarity] and if you can hear the diference you have most remarkable hearing

[not trying to offend, just that was my whole point about not being able to hear a flipped polarity waveform delta]

Not all drivers and songs are same. I think it's audible. It might be more obvious with some instruments or speakers/headphones and not obvious with others.

I am not arguing if this is audible or not. But it's not again physics which implies not detetable in any possible way.

I am not arguing if this is audible or not. But it's not again physics which implies not detetable in any possible way.

Those are my thoughts and experiences, not trying to lecture anyone on their experiences

According to this test the D50s is in phase, I can clearly hear the difference, at least with my sample of D50s.

Hi all, Here is my attempt to capture the difference between old and new firmware. I tried my best to level match. Also there are no tone controls used - The Amp [Onkyo 9150] is running Direct Mode in both scenarios. Speakers are Dynaudio X18. My recording gear is nothing special -- just want to demonstrate that lossy recording + lossy youtube can atleast still partially convey the difference I am subjectively hearing. It seems I hear it more in the mid-bass/bass region. There is more richness in tone in the Positive polarity / New firmware. While the old one is clean and clear with the perception of more detail. Again, i'm not forcing this to anyone, just sharing my observations.

In my setup, I can flip the polarity of the signal at will and I certainly don't hear any difference in the bass like that. But it's clearly audible in the recording you posted.

But it is Apple that gives the tool permission. There is a big wall there.

FWIW, i hear no difference after the upgrade.

Does the D90 have the polarity issue?

Additional: in my experience with the E30 so far, until the ASR user that mentioned the inverted output, I did not notice and thought the E30 sounded excellent, stunning even. To my ears it's fantastic. As i mentioned in an earlier post some claim to be able to hear absolute polarity change but multiple dbl blindfold tests have failed to confirm this... in all my years of pro audio work so far ncluding tracking, mixing and mastering work I have been able to detect all manner of acoustic anomolies, comb filtering phase coherence and cancellation issues, simple phase and other oddities, but I cannot honestly hear absolute polarity when flipped on tthe gear I have tested on. If you stop and think about it, if a speaker or headphone perfomed adversely in the negative component of a waveform, and had increased distortion during the negative waveform component then we would be in serious trouble ...trying to reproduce anything close to a sine wave would be impossible, thanfully speakers work equally well in both directions and so we get nice clean [enough] sound reproduction.... so by their nature if absolute polarity was audible it would logically be in oppostion to physics and the very fact a speaker can work at all to fairhfully reproduce a non distorted sound that has both an equally complex positive and negative component. In short if the negative wave component was somehow reproduced with inferior quality, speakers on the whole wouldn't work so well in practice.

I dont think it effects the sound but as stated multiple times I do think it matters

My video clip

//theaudiophileman.com/e30-pre-amp-dac-review-topping-2/

Has been posted already. Doesn't look good for me. Preamp is no good. Subjective I guess

Are you sure? In this very thread?

Preamp is no good. Subjective I guess

1. As has been noted numerous times already, the preamp can be bypassed [pure DAC mode].
2. Since the preamp operates in the digital domain, it works better than any analogue volume attenuator ever could. The only issue is that it doesn't attenuate the "pop" when switching bitrates. This was discussed endlessly in this thread and IMO, is not an issue. Others may disagree but, in any case, the "pop" was not mentioned by the reviewer [one indication that it's not really an issue]. His actual complaints:

   Firstly, let’s look at the E30 as a pre amp. To test this, I connected it to a pair of YU4 powered speakers from Kanto and played Bob Marley’s Jamming via an Astel&Kern AK120. Output was rather unbalanced, bass heavy with rather bloomy bass at that. Mids were claustrophobic, treble was rolled off while the soundstage was restricted and stuffed full of cotton wool. In pre-amp mode? No. Don’t go there.

   are complete [email protected]#$%.

Thank you for taking the time to make a recording! Was the mic position completely untouched between recordings? I feel like the mic positions sound different [comb filtering at different frequencies]. There is certainly more bass in the correct polarity recording which is interesting. Can I ask what your setup consists of?

In my setup, I can flip the polarity of the signal at will and I certainly don't hear any difference in the bass like that. But it's clearly audible in the recording you posted.

The recording of the old firmware was from a week ago when I unboxed it and compared the sound to a Schiit dac. Maybe its not 100% identical but I tried to make it similar conditions as possible. My thoughts on this is, if a hastily prepared video using subpar recording + streaming compression can convey the difference I hear in person, maybe its not just in my head. You can guarantee that my intention is not to prove a point but to also discover if what i'm hearing is placebo [if you take a look at my channel, its filled with lots of experiment comparisons because im OCD like that]

I don't read all the audio threads of the Internet; that'll be the day. And 8/10 score is subjective I agree. It's the same with movie reviewers rating movies. The essence here is that the Topping E30 DAC measured very very good and is extremely affordable for just over hundred bucks. * I did check back till yesterday to see if that short article was posted; I didn't see it, so I posted it...only for fun, for the nice pics, for the additional on topic interest. Edit: I went back again, and this time further; I didn't see any link to that article.

Are you sure? In this very thread?

Why do you think the effects are very audible in my setup? Its not the greatest but I like to think the speakers are more than decent [Dynaudio, which are also used in Studios]. One thing I can think about is my living room is very small [condo] and the room gain greatly amplifies the effect. I feel that the most noticeable change is using dynamic and bass-heavy songs where dynamics are required for the woofer to work on. I recorded it here:
My video clip

So why doesn't it ? It's respomse will be uniform regardless of the polarity of the source fed to it...Surely a less capable speaker would stuggle more to be consistant in the negative phase of the waveform if that was so, but it doesn't, it stuggles equally to reproduce sound in both directions... the better quality speaker is more capable at producing a greater range of frequencies, at the same volume with lower distortion.

maybe the L30 should have a polarity switch

@JohnYang1997 can you confirm that I can override the 1.08 firmware to 1.07 without any bad effects? I just want to roll-back the update and just switch my speaker cables and be done with it. I also noticed you added in the instructions that the topping driver is needed for the 1.08 firmware to work. Does this mean if I uninstall the topping driver, the polarity reversal would not take effect and I can keep the 1.08 firmware?

Thanks

FWIW, i hear no difference after the upgrade.

I don't think there should be a difference in sound even if the polarity is reversed. If the timbre is different between the positive and negative sine waves, it is strange. If you still feel the difference, I think the cause is the connected mechanical vibration system. If it is a good quality SP unit, it will be reproduced faithfully regardless of polarity within the range of X-max [the moving distance of the voice coil].

@JohnYang1997 can you confirm that I can override the 1.08 firmware to 1.07 without any bad effects? I just want to roll-back the update and just switch my speaker cables and be done with it. I also noticed you added in the instructions that the topping driver is needed for the 1.08 firmware to work. Does this mean if I uninstall the topping driver, the polarity reversal would not take effect and I can keep the 1.08 firmware?

Thanks

As to drivers, this is [as far as I can tell] a red herring. For Windows, you need a special set of USB drivers installed to access the E30 over USB. For Linux, it just uses the standard Linux drivers [accessed via libusb]. On Macos, the commandine tool uses a dynamically-linked version of libusb [presumably borrowed from Linux].

Even iiWi Reviews [popular Youtube reviewer of Audio gear who has all high praises for the E30 in his review] heard the difference on his LS50. Maybe if the listening device is not resolving enough, you wont notice the difference?

Yes I was wondering as well why the effects are more than subtle on mine. The speakers are Dynaudio X18, amp is Onkyo 9150, its quite a revealing speaker and I would think its decent enough not to have any design anomalies. The songs I selected are dynamic ones with lots of instruments & dynamics which can work the woofer more. In the blind test posted earlier of one acoustic guitar, I could also not hear the difference.

Even iiWi Reviews [popular Youtube reviewer of Audio gear who has all high praises for the E30 in his review] heard the difference on his LS50. Maybe if the listening device is not resolving enough, you wont notice the difference?
View attachment 64761

1. Rather than switching the wires on your speakers, invert the signal in the digital domain. In Roon [for instance], that's under the "Speaker Setup" DSP filter. That way, you can switch back and forth with a mouse click. Or, even better, you can ask a friend to switch for you, and see if you can ABX the difference.
2. Evidently, I need to replace the insufficiently-resolving Hypex NCore amplifier driving my LS50s. Any suggestions?

I could prepare an audio file in Logic with some song snippets of your choosing, played once in normal polarity and once inverted. This would eliminate any other potential sources of error [level matching, EQ in different sources, etc] and we can see if it's indeed simply the polarity inversion that is leading to the difference in the bass. I don't doubt that absolute polarity differences are audible under certain circumstances, but it would only make sense to hear differences in transients and the timbre of asymmetrical waveforms, not a loudness difference in sustained bass notes. So I think something else may be afoot. What do you think?

Sounds nice but But doesn't that take the speakers out of the equation? i'm afraid, it would be irrelevant for my use-case.

1. Rather than switching the wires on your speakers, invert the signal in the digital domain. In Roon [for instance], that's under the "Speaker Setup" DSP filter. That way, you can switch back and forth with a mouse click. Or, even better, you can ask a friend to switch for you, and see if you can ABX the difference.
2. Evidently, I need to replace the insufficiently-resolving Hypex NCore amplifier driving my LS50s. Any suggestions?

1. Evidently, I need to replace the insufficiently-resolving Hypex NCore amplifier driving my LS50s. Any suggestions?

Not at all, you can play the audio file through the same setup you're using now. So you can see if the absolute polarity on its own is causing the sonic difference, or if there's something else amiss.

I think the difference in sounds you feel is correct. I have two E30s. One is the one I purchased the first with a DSD 2.8 problem and the other is the improved E30 from Topping. Ver is 1.07 for both units. I updated one E30 to Ver1.08 and compared the sounds with speaker playback, but I could not feel a clear difference. However, I understand that there is a problem as a comparison method because the USB connection cannot be switched instantly. This is my argument.

I don't think there should be a difference in sound even if the polarity is reversed. If the timbre is different between the positive and negative sine waves, it is strange. If you still feel the difference, I think the cause is the connected mechanical vibration system. If it is a good quality SP unit, it will be reproduced faithfully regardless of polarity within the range of X-max [the moving distance of the voice coil].

And, well, there's the psychological thing... Which may make you think that everything sounds worse [since now people know that some inputs have reversed polarity].

that would be interesting if it is not much trouble. the songs I used were:
View attachment 64765

Okay, so I've gone ahead and gotten a 4-bar sample from Jack of Speed, and looped it a few times. Here is the download link. It's a 24-bit 44.1kHz FLAC, converted from the Tidal master and properly dithered.

• The first time it plays, it's in its original polarity.
• The second time is in inverted polarity.
• It plays ten more times. I chose by coin flip each time whether it would be in original or inverted polarity.

Not at all! The audible difference in your video was intriguing.

Okay, so I've gone ahead and gotten a 4-bar sample from Jack of Speed, and looped it a few times. Here is the download link. It's a 24-bit 44.1kHz FLAC, converted from the Tidal master and properly dithered.

• The first time it plays, it's in its original polarity.
• The second time is in inverted polarity.
• It plays ten more times. I chose by coin flip each time whether it would be in original or inverted polarity.

So, in theory, if it's indeed the polarity difference causing the change in sound, then the second time the loop plays should sound exactly like how it did before the DAC update. Would be interested in seeing if you can suss out which is which in the last ten loops, I'll show the answer in a bit!

Why do you think the effects are very audible in my setup? Its not the greatest but I like to think the speakers are more than decent [Dynaudio, which are also used in Studios]. One thing I can think about is my living room is very small [condo] and the room gain greatly amplifies the effect. I feel that the most noticeable change is using dynamic and bass-heavy songs where dynamics are required for the woofer to work on. I recorded it here:
My video clip

Better still the standard and inverted files discussed above will do the trick as you already mentioned

the insufficiently-resolving Hypex NCore amplifier

those stats seemed a bit off to me. but you're right, i shall butt out. i agree that it should be 'relatively' easy to get access to a Windows machine that can do the update, it does literally take 2 or 3 minutes.

Operating system market share world wide

But give or take a few %, this hasn't change much around the last 10 years. It has always been around 90/10

Just an electrical sidenote to @mykeldg. In practice, swapping speaker wires should be the same as inverting the polarity of the signal, but in theory they are different.

The red wire is hot and the white wire is ground. Since your speakers have a floating ground, swapping the wires should make no difference [beyond inverting the polarity]. But if there were a small leakage current ...

That's why it would be really important to see if the effect is still present when you leave the wires unchanged and digitally invert the polarity of the signal.

Even iiWi Reviews [popular Youtube reviewer of Audio gear who has all high praises for the E30 in his review] heard the difference on his LS50. Maybe if the listening device is not resolving enough, you wont notice the difference?
View attachment 64761

Guys ... I really would like not hear, but with that post from Archimago [//archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/musings-and-listening-on-absolute.html. Yamamoto2002; //sourceforge.net/p/playpcmwin/wiki/AbsolutePolarityListeningTest/] I was able to tell apart which sample was. I'll be testing with music samples - a more realistic situation. The gear used was a Khadas Tone Board> JDS Atom> HD600 / HD650 / VE Monk Plus - the difference was audible with any of those heaphones. More, according to Yamamoto2002, the noninverted sample should be perceived as higher pitch compared to inverted one, but I´m hearing opposite to it. Does KTD have its polarity inverted too?

@JohnYang1997 Could you tell with there is any [technical or not] reason to invert its polarity? I thought it was something inerent to AKM, but D10 has the same behavior and its an ESS chip... And John, maybe you can talk about this better, but if I feed a op amp using a inverting configuration the out signal will be inverted relative to input one, right? So, even those DACs with those characteristics, there are some amps with inverting config and I do not see many people complaning about it or there are some who find terrific...

As I told before, it´s audible to me in this specific case... Although I do not have enough experiments [and experience] to tell about other situatiuons...

Does disassembling the device and changing the RCA signal wire and soldering solve this reverse polarity issue?

I think they don't have it in stock and they don't say it to the customer. I was expecting quick shipping but waited 2 weeks and cancelled after that. Now waiting for the refund god knows when. Bad experience nonetheless. They should state that it's not in stock.

Does disassembling the device and changing the RCA signal wire and soldering solve this reverse polarity issue?

Guys ... I really would like not hear, but with that post from Archimago [//archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/musings-and-listening-on-absolute.html. Yamamoto2002; //sourceforge.net/p/playpcmwin/wiki/AbsolutePolarityListeningTest/] I was able to tell apart which sample was. I'll be testing with music samples - a more realistic situation. The gear used was a Khadas Tone Board> JDS Atom> HD600 / HD650 / VE Monk Plus - the difference was audible with any of those heaphones. More, according to Yamamoto2002, the noninverted sample should be perceived as higher pitch compared to inverted one, but I´m hearing opposite to it. Does KTD have its polarity inverted too?

@JohnYang1997 Could you tell with there is any [technical or not] reason to invert its polarity? I thought it was something inerent to AKM, but D10 has the same behavior and its an ESS chip... And John, maybe you can talk about this better, but if I feed a op amp using a inverting configuration the out signal will be inverted relative to input one, right? So, even those DACs with those characteristics, there are some amps with inverting config and I do not see many people complaning about it or there are some who find terrific...

As I told before, it´s audible to me in this specific case... Although I do not have enough experiments [and experience] to tell about other situatiuons...

That was really interesting. The first few trials, I was really lousy at it. But eventually, I could hit 100% every time. That was with a pair of cheap earbuds plugged into my MacBook Pro [ABXTester.app].

Does anyone know the output impedance spec for the E30?

I guess those ''large soundstage'' reviews comes from inverted output. All reviewers saying E30 has large soundstage.

Here are the osx and linux commandline firmware updaters for the E30. As long as you don't interrupt the update process, they should be perfectly safe. But they are offered without any warranty.

Above all, don't go crying to Topping ...

Those "reviews" are anecdotes at best and are not taken seriously here as they hold no evidentiary value. More, a DAC review dwelling on "large soundstages" is a joke. People are being hysterical about this issue and unless proof is given, there is no reason to believe that the issue is audible. That these golden ears are popping up now that there is a known "issue" is ridiculous and, unfortunately, par for the course as these products bring in hordes of "subjectivists" to the site.

Those "reviews" are anecdotes at best and are not taken seriously here as they hold no evidentiary value. More, a DAC review dwelling on "large soundstages" is a joke. People are being hysterical about this issue and unless proof is given, there is no reason to believe that the issue is audible. That these golden ears are popping up now that there is a known "issue" is ridiculous and, unfortunately, par for the course as these products bring in hordes of "subjectivists" to the site.

Whatever the case[audible or not] Topping will no doubt lose customers because of this, and they may even have issues with existing customers. It's a real shame. I for one, hope it's not audible on my system. Changing polarity in my active speakers will be a PITA.

Changing polarity in my active speakers will be a PITA.

If you're using an external DAC with digital active speakers [and hence incurring an additional digital→analog→digital] conversion, then I think you have bigger things to worry about.

I'm not quite sure I follow.

Wherever possible, digital active speakers should be fed a digital input.

Digital active speakers [KEF LS50W, Dutch & Dutch 8c, Kii Three, ...] use a buitlin ADC to convert their analog inputs to digital, perform various DSP operations, and then convert that back to analog using the builtin DAC. If you hook up an external DAC to such speakers and feed them its analog output, then you are going digital → analog → digital → analog The quality of the resulting output is only as good as the weakest link in that [overly long] chain.

Wherever possible, digital active speakers should be fed a digital input.

''Large soundstage'' was consistent trend amongst all reviews. Now seeing inverted samples it sounds leaner and have a feeling of larger soundstage. Have some respect mr. smart ass. Stop with that ''objectivist'' vs ''subjectivist'' fight in your mind. You are making yourself look stupid and offensive. We are here for information and discussion about the topic.

Yeap. I'm using rca to xlr. What's the most simplest way to reverse polarity in this situation?

• Right now, RCA ground is connected to XLR pins 1 and 3. RCA hot is connected to XLR pin 2.
• What you want is RCA ground connected to XLR pin 2 and RCA hot connected to XLR pin 3 [nothing connected to XLR pin 1 = ground].

Or you could find a solution which lets you use the USB input to the E30...

Can I not simply reverse the polarity on the speaker drivers themselves [tweeter, midbass]? I don't want to be hacking at my cables. I was actually just going to update the unit and use my PC via USB for music listening.

Optical will just be for tv and movie viewing.

I was actually just going to update the unit and use my PC via USB for music listening.

Optical will just be for tv and movie viewing.

I hear Yanny with FW 1.07 and Laurel with FW 1.08...

It must really be dependent on other gear, no?

The people claiming to hear a difference, please take my test.

How so? Unless your gear is grossly distorting asymmetrically. Let's see if anyone can actually tell the difference with music in the first place. If there is an audible difference it's bound to be very small. There's a lot of claims floating around in this thread with regards to absolute polarity's audible effects, and most of them are bound to not be due to absolute polarity.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say I disagree with you. From what some have said on this thread, noticeable changes were heard. That's why I said it must really depend on the other gear used in a system. I look forward to seeing if there are any noticeable changes. I really need to get my wife to agree to randomly switch between updates without me knowing. That would be the only real way to do it. Your mind can play tricks on you.

You don't need to switch between updates to compare the sound of correct and inverted polarity, you can simply just listen to the audio file I posted. If you're on the updated firmware, the first 4 bars is in correct polarity, and the second 4 bars is in inverted polarity. If you're on the old firmware, the first 4 bars is in inverted polarity, and the second 4 bars is in correct polarity. If you can hear any difference at all then it should be apparent, and anybody claiming to hear a difference can prove this by correctly identifying which is which in the next 10 repetitions. If not, then there's no need to worry about it.

Well, I think the people claiming "a more open soundstage" have fallen victim to placebo. Not sure how the other gear used could possibly affect that.

You don't need to switch between updates to compare the sound of correct and inverted polarity, you can simply just listen to the audio file I posted. If you're on the updated firmware, the first 4 bars is in correct polarity, and the second 4 bars is in inverted polarity. If you're on the old firmware, the first 4 bars is in inverted polarity, and the second 4 bars is in correct polarity. If you can hear any difference at all then it should be apparent, and anybody claiming to hear a difference can prove this by correctly identifying which is which in the next 10 repetitions. If not, then there's no need to worry about it.

Your file will come in handy, but now that everyone knows which part of the recording is reversed, would that not also potentially create a 'placebo" effect? I suggest making another one, but do not disclose the polarity. Then, if people start saying there is a difference, at least you know it isn't caused by your mind knowing which is which.

Your file will come in handy, but now that everyone knows which part of the recording is reversed, would that not also potentially create a 'placebo" effect? I suggest making another one, but do not disclose the polarity. Then, if people start saying there is a difference, at least you know it isn't caused by your mind knowing which is which.

FWIW I doubt that a "low quality" MP3 file would make any difference in this test as well, but I went through the trouble of starting from the highest quality source I had at hand [Tidal master], and produced a 24-bit FLAC. Volume was normalized to slightly lower than the original Tidal source [~0.3 dB] to accommodate for inter-sample peaks from the sample rate conversion. CoreAudio performed the sample rate conversion, the volume was adjusted in 64-bit floating point precision, and POW-r #2 dithering was applied for the final result. All transparent processes, so no excuses!

It must really be dependent on other gear, no?

I hope this helps explain my understang of absolute polarity, take a moment to digest and think of the ramifications and implications across all sectors of pro-auidio and commercial sound if absolute polarity was audible... film, broadcast television, radio... all these sectors would have a big red stamp on page one of their technical manuals saying, before going any further please ensure absolute polarity of your monitoring system using a known source and an oscilloscope before turning the page... they don't btw...

While I respect everyone's opinion and interpretation of what they think they hear, I cannot hear absolute polarity inversion in a hifi, studio or headphone setting, as audio engineers we flip single track polarties all the time to correct phase cacellations and maintain phase coherence to reinforce tracks mixed together where mulitiple mics or absolut phase of an electronic instrument mismatch in phase, I didnt mention this before because it is not the same as stereo polarity and it will only add confusion for some and irritate others as it's not relevant to the E30 polarity output. Now that I brought it up, might as well run with it... if we flip polarity on a bass track [mic or DI] to correct phase against the other tracks in the mix, and now the waform is upside down, shouldn't that mean the bsss track will sound different? In combination with the other tracks it wil sound differentl, but if you solo that bass track and keep flipping the polarity using the phase button you will absolutely not hear a tonal, volume or any aural qualitative change. I also have attempted to explain through relatable example why I believe it is not audible in previous posts [we are simply inverting the stereo pair of AC waveforms, net effect is zero audible difference], in fact the more resolving or higher performing speaker or headphone should by logic demonstrate fewer artifacts if they wete evident, which i do not believe they are. The important part I continue to stress regarding the E30 is correct polarty for the sake of waveform integrity, not for audible reasons...

I hope this helps explain my understang of absolute polarity, take a moment to digest and think of the ramifications and implications across all sectors of pro-auidio and commercial sound if absolute polarity was audible... film, broadcast television, radio... all these sectors would have a big red stamp on page one of their technical manuals saying, before going any further please ensure absolute polarity of your monitoring system using a known source and an oscilloscope before turning the page... they don't btw...

This leads to another point. The music people listen to have inverted polarity sounds in them all the time. Given that you can actually hear a difference in the first place, how is it possible to determine that the music sounds better in one polarity or another, when what you're listening to is already a crapshoot with regards to polarity?

I agree, having had the same experience with polarity in a mixing/production environment. Engineers flip the polarity of individual tracks all the time [simply to get them to mix in phase with other mics, etc.]. This does not mean that when you flip the polarity of the entire song that anything will sound different, it's only when you mix them with other sounds that it matters.

This leads to another point. The music people listen to have inverted polarity sounds in them all the time. Given that you can actually hear a difference in the first place, how is it possible to determine that the music sounds better in one polarity or another, when what you're listening to is already a crapshoot with regards to polarity?

Sorry for the off main topic stuff but it may help understand why polarity is sometimes important in context but not audible when discussing a stereo pair in isolation

Distance of the microphone [in wavelengths of the fundamental freq being produced at the time which changes with pitch] will determine the caputered polarity of an acoustic source of the fundamental freq being produced at the time which changes with pitch... lol it has no natural default polarity.

A triangle wave form will retain its shape no matter how long the distance it travels without dispersion. It will not become a reversed triangle.

You can also argue that at no possible distance all frequency can shift 180 degree at the same time because phase shift is frequency and distance dependent. So reversed polarity can not be naturally occurred.
A triangle wave form will retain its shape no matter how long the distance it travels without dispersion. It will not become a reversed triangle.

some generes of music may and do have tighter or preffered disciplines when approaching a production and making appropriate choices for the product, that goes especially for mastering.

I have listened that test suggested by @franspambot before the test from Archimago and I was "happy" because apparentely I was not sensible to "absoluty polarity", buut when tried this test from Yamomoto2002, it was a surprise for me because was quite easy pick up each was each. I even try it with different headphones, sources and inverting the "polarity" of the original sample and still quite easy to differentiate... According to Archimago we are able to perceived polarity invertion when there are non symmetrical waves like those samples. Maybe, just maybe, we would be able to tell apart in a music if an instrument creates such non symmetrical waves...

According to Archimago we are able to perceived polarity invertion when there are non symmetrical waves like those samples. Maybe, just maybe, we would be able to tell apart in a music if the instrument creates those non symmetrical waves...

According to Archimago we are able to perceived polarity invertion when there are non symmetrical waves like those samples.

But [apparently] human hearing is more like a half-wave rectifier followed by a Fast Fourier analyzer. And the Fourier transforms of ½[ |f[t]|+f[t] ] and of ½[ |f[t]|-f[t] ] can differ in magnitude.

A triangle instrument however makes both positive and negative going waves of complex pattern... not just a postive and not just negative... when you put that sound through a half wave rectifier [fuzz box] you chop half the wave off thus leaving an unatural half wave distorted replica of that original source waveform...

Triangle is just an example. The matter of fact is that within a finite time domain it's not possible to have a complete symetric signal between polarity, so flip a signal is physically different and can not be naturally produced. All your argument is correct if time is infinite. Also time travel in one direction, within a fintie time domain there is a before and after.

I may be missing your point, sorry.

I can 'prove'/backup everything i have written with published theory and example... I'm not really sure what you are saying in relation to time as the time domain remains the same only the polarity of the waveform is inverted.

I may be missing your point, sorry.

I can 'prove'/backup everything i have written with published theory and example...

As best as I can tell, your "pressure" argument is just the statement that the integral from t=-∞ to t=+∞ of f[t]dt equals zero. That and $2.95 will get you a latté at Starbucks.

Compare the first and second half of each file, flipping between them repeatedly if necessary.

I think it can be said that we won't be able to hear the polarity inversion of a continuous symmetrical waveform [i.e. all the harmonics are in phase]. An asymmetrical waveform is due to the harmonics being shifted in phase. And yes, in certain situations, we can hear polarity inversion, because the ear behaves somewhat like a half-wave rectifier [such as the artificial test tone by yamamoto2002]. However, to bring this around to the original point of contention, which is whether or not absolute polarity actually matters in real-world music listening use, I don't think it does. When the instruments you're listening to were originally recorded in the first place, this was done with one or two mics at some arbitrary point in space, with varying angles, distances, mic radiation pickup patterns, room reflections, etc. The instruments themselves also have their own arbitrary sound radiation patterns. Simply moving this mic around while recording would dramatically change the waveform being recorded. The frequency response changing [even in a minimum phase way] as the mic moves around and picks up sound from the instrument from a different point in space also causes the phase of the harmonics to shift around. So my point is that since there's not necessarily a "correct" polarity being preserved throughout the whole recording process, does it really matter if you're listening to music in inverted polarity or not? You may be able to hear a difference when listening to an asymmetrical waveform, but that doesn't mean one polarity sounds better than the other.

I think people are overblowing the significant of the E30's output being inverted for its intended use of music listening. Sure, I would much prefer the polarity of any DAC to be correct, but that's purely from an intellectual point of view, not because it sounds better.

To the above posters Yejun and Samsa, I work in pro audio, I haven't published any theory books I was referring to published audio engineering and acoustic texts widely available. I was sharing my professional experience related to absolute polarity to help put people at ease that are worried about the E30 outputs polirty as I joined this forum to discuss possible correction of such as I felt it was important and was obliged to continue the discussion. I am not here to argue anything or lecture anyone, I have hoever sent mixes and albums to mastering engineers multiple times and also recieved mixes for mastering many times, sat there in the mastering studios next to them discussing every minute detail about the aspects of that track for hours over many days, time and time again... not once have I been asked about absolute polarity of the material nor have I been asked about the absolute polarity of tracks... it's just taken for granted that the waveforms are as intended... you don't put a scope on a 2 track tape master and say, oh that's inverted because that first wave looked weird. i've seen some odd looking waveforms but never had to invert a stereo pair for audible reasons in isolation. If you hear a difference that's ok, it just doesn't affect me and i don't mind that you can hear it, i'm surprised and will take it onboard but I'm not fused either way as I understand the theory and how it applies to me and my work. I will conduct further tests on myself and my colleagues and see what happens although to be perfectly honest I will have to present a good case to avoid being laughed at by some as it's never really discussed outside of the odd anomaly like the Revolver 2009 CD remaster first release as a technical blunder not audible error and as absolute polarity is more a tube hifi era problem or rather non problem accordingly...

Best practice is to maintain correct polarity end to end through the process that's what is expected and maintained wherever possible.

The frequency response changing [even in a minimum phase way] as the mic moves around and picks up sound from the instrument from a different point in space also causes the phase of the harmonics to shift around. So my point is that since there's not necessarily a "correct" polarity being preserved throughout the whole recording process, does it really matter if you're listening to music in inverted polarity or not?

• what the "right" overall polarity is and
• whether the difference between the two polarities is audible.

But, given the fact that the polarity inversion is drop-dead obvious in Yamamoto2002's example, I wouldn't be too quick to tell anyone that the differences that they hear in the polarity-reversal of actual music are all "imaginary."

But, given the fact that the polarity inversion is drop-dead obvious in Yamamoto2002's example, I wouldn't be too quick to tell anyone that the differences that they hear in the polarity-reversal of actual music are all "imaginary."

So my point is that since there's not necessarily a "correct" polarity being preserved throughout the whole recording process, does it really matter if you're listening to music in inverted polarity or not? You may be able to hear a difference when listening to an asymmetrical waveform, but that doesn't mean one polarity sounds better than the other.

but hard to see how an inverted polarity could lead to more or less soundstage.

And whether one sounds better than the other...

But, at least, the DAC shouldn't be the confounding factor in this. And @JohnYang1997 very promptly pushed out a fix for the problem [at least for the vast majority of users, who utilize the USB interface for their "serious" music playback].

We should be cheering this amazing customer support, rather than grousing ...

But, at least, the DAC shouldn't be the confounding factor in this. And @JohnYang1997 very promptly pushed out a fix for the problem [at least for the vast majority of users, who utilize the USB interface for their "serious" music playback].

We should be cheering this amazing customer support, rather than grousing ...

... or cost cutting measure though.

Think of this a "bug". Every substantial piece of software/hardware has bugs that don't get caught before release. Sometimes they get fixed later, and sometimes they don't.

I was sharing my professional experience related to absolute polarity to help put people at ease that are worried about the E30 outputs polirty as I joined this forum to discuss possible correction of such as I felt it was important and was obliged to continue the discussion.

I will conduct further tests on myself and my colleagues and see what happens although to be perfectly honest I will have to present a good case to avoid being laughed at by some as it's never really discussed outside of the odd anomaly like the Revolver 2009 CD remaster first release as a technical blunder not audible error and as absolute polarity is more a tube hifi era problem or rather non problem accordingly...
Best practice is to maintain correct polarity end to end through the process that's what is expected and maintained wherever possible.

on many recordings there may not be a "best" choice of overall polarity.

But, at least, the DAC shouldn't be the confounding factor in this. And @JohnYang1997 very promptly pushed out a fix for the problem [at least for the vast majority of users, who utilize the USB interface for their "serious" music playback].

the DAC definitely shouldn't be inverting the polarity, just to be technically correct, but I think people who are rushing to return their E30s because of this are making a mountain out of a molehill...

Sure, I would much prefer the polarity of any DAC to be correct, but that's purely from an intellectual point of view, not because it sounds better.

But, given the fact that the polarity inversion is drop-dead obvious in Yamamoto2002's example, I wouldn't be too quick to tell anyone that the differences that they hear in the polarity-reversal of actual music are all "imaginary."

Of course not, I wouldn't call it an imaginary difference

but it is clear that this effect can be perceived in some capacity when listening to asymmetrical waveforms, and music contains asymmetrical waveforms, so it should stand to reason that it should be the goal of any device to not reproduce this problem, even if realistically there are potentially only subtle ramifications at worst.

For someone a fly, for someone an elephant, do not comb everyone a common comb. From the quotes below, including yours, it follows that there are sufficient grounds for not acquiring E30, because audiophiles tend to be purists.

Feel free to take my test in post #1237 and report back on what you hear.

I'll admit it annoys me a bit, but I always intended to use this with a PC, via USB, so it doesn't really affect me unless I decide I want to use one of the other inputs, which I can't see happening. Still... It's a pity the controller [?] firmware isn't user [or eg dealer] upgradable.

EDIT: well to clarify, i can't tell the difference anyway, so using USB it can't even affect me in theory.

Allow this very low noise switching power supply to feed my E30, for me, I would say it made me happier than those DACs costed 3 or 4 x expansive more.

From the quotes below, including yours, it follows that there are sufficient grounds for not acquiring E30, because audiophiles tend to be purists.

I thought you were the guy who insisted he wasn't going to buy an E30 because of the "pop" issue. Now you want to be the guy who isn't going to buy an E30 because the optical/coax interfaces reverse polarity?

Could you please make up your #@%& mind what the reason you're not going to buy an E30 is, and stick to it?

Because this one is incredibly dumb. New E30s will ship with the corrected firmware so that their coax/optical interfaces preserve polarity. This issue only affects existing E30 owners.

But they already knew the optical/coax inputs are inferior to the USB input:

• No DSD support, not even DoP [the USB input does native DSD up to DSD512]
• PCM only up to 24/192 [the USB input does 32/768]
• Worse SINAD and jitter
• ...

So, really, you're going to have to find another reason to gripe about the E30 [starting with actually owning one].

How do any of you know for a fact that the phase has been inverted from what it was before? In any event, how do you know which is/was ‘right’ and which was/is ‘wrong’?

The only way you will ever hear a difference between normal and inverse phase is if either your electronics or a loudspeaker is responding asymmetrically because of a fault condition.

I have been pressing buttons marked "phase" all my working life and can assure you that absolute phase makes no difference to those who are not expecting a difference.

I have been pressing buttons marked "phase" all my working life and can assure you that absolute phase makes no difference to those who are not expecting a difference.

I have been pressing buttons marked "phase" all my working life and can assure you that absolute phase makes no difference to those who are not expecting a difference.

I would like to add that my evga sound card has the same dac chip and yet it performs worse.

I cannot believe that people really get so worked up over something like this that truly doesn't matter in the real world! I would be far more interested if something resembling a proof of the significance of absolute phase could be achieved using a waveform that could exist in nature.

I cannot believe that people really get so worked up over something like this that truly doesn't matter in the real world! I would be far more interested if something resembling a proof of the significance of absolute phase could be achieved using a waveform that could exist in nature.

Hey may I check of the 6 available filters, which should I use? My setup is PC, Topping E30, JDS Atom and HD6XX.

Thank you!

I cannot believe that people really get so worked up over something like this that truly doesn't matter in the real world! I would be far more interested if something resembling a proof of the significance of absolute phase could be achieved using a waveform that could exist in nature.

You don't have enough to interest you in life, do you?

I don't yet know the full implications of that. But I'm interested in finding out.

I agree. That is completely far-fetched. Just because there's a difference doesn't give one license to impute all sorts of magical properties to that difference.

For the reasons you've explained rather eloquently, on many recordings there may not be a "best" choice of overall polarity.

But, at least, the DAC shouldn't be the confounding factor in this. And @JohnYang1997 very promptly pushed out a fix for the problem [at least for the vast majority of users, who utilize the USB interface for their "serious" music playback].

We should be cheering this amazing customer support, rather than grousing ...

"listened to this album on few digital sources and I can confirm that E30 is having a really good soundstage size, a great pin point imaging and an amazing depth even by listening to crowded music. When the pace intensifies, I observed that E30 didn’t gave up at all and was throwing music in all directions, enveloping the room with decent amounts of air. Even some light gothic metal started sounding like a classical masterpiece."

You don't have enough to interest you in life, do you?

You don't find the audibility of absolute polarity interesting?

An important part of the human auditory system's operation is its adaptability to changing circumstances and I really don't see the evidential value of using a specially designed test waveform to prove something that a lifetime's experience has shown does not matter in the real world.

I don't know what you're drinking but, whatever it is, I'd like to try a pint!

For instance, your semi-clipped waveform may well be ideal for an ABX test because the ear is unaccustomed to the highly asymmetric waveform and when the asymmetry switches polarity in near-instant test conditions, it jars and the ear is capable of distinguishing the two states in a short time frame. If the test were reconfigured with, say, a five or ten second silent gap between trials, I wonder where the previously-claimed 100% success would go.

Highly asymmetrical waveforms are ubiquitous. @hyperplanar mentioned the trombone. One could equally well consider drumbeats, the low A on a piano, ... For which of these the absolute polarity is audible is an interesting and AFAIK open question.

If human hearing really were a Fast Fourier Analyzer, as I had always been told, then absolute polarity would be completely inaudible

Show me a trombone that produces a waveform like that and I'll show you a microphone [or its amplifier] that is overloading.

It's far more likely to be an imperfect FF analysis...

To detect the absolute phase, you need a new ingredient, that is not Fourier analysis, like the fact that the cilia in the inner ear react asymmetrically to over/underpressure. That's the "half-wave rectifier" mentioned above.

If f[t] is an asymmetrical waveform, then the Fourier transforms of the rectified waveforms differ in magnitude, not just in phase.

Most 'features' of human hearing exist because of a clearly defined evolutionary need for them. The ability to detect absolute phase with any degree of consistency or reliability isn't amongst them.

Show me a trombone that produces a waveform like that and I'll show you a microphone [or its amplifier] that is overloading.

Evolution cannot defy physics, but if there is a need for something, nature has an uncanny knack of providing.

I am quite prepared to accept that there are occasional instances of absolute phase being detectable, but not on a consistent or reliably repeatable basis. While this test wave may bear some resemblance to what a trombone & its player might be capable of creating, I am confident that the abrupt clipping on one side of your magic waveform is not something that occurs in nature.

Evolution cannot defy physics, but if there is a need for something, nature has an uncanny knack of providing.

I am quite prepared to accept that there are occasional instances of absolute phase being detectable, but not on a consistent or reliably repeatable basis. While this test wave may bear some resemblance to what a trombone & its player might be capable of creating, I am confident that the abrupt clipping on one side of your magic waveform is not something that occurs in nature.

Well, I think the people claiming "a more open soundstage" have fallen victim to placebo. Not sure how the other gear used could possibly affect that.

You don't need to switch between updates to compare the sound of correct and inverted polarity, you can simply just listen to the audio file I posted. If you're on the updated firmware, the first 4 bars is in correct polarity, and the second 4 bars is in inverted polarity. If you're on the old firmware, the first 4 bars is in inverted polarity, and the second 4 bars is in correct polarity. If you can hear any difference at all then it should be apparent, and anybody claiming to hear a difference can prove this by correctly identifying which is which in the next 10 repetitions. If not, then there's no need to worry about it.

There are lots of different hardware and different driver types out there. Some of them might respond bad to inverted polarity. There are also lots of different instruments and sound. I don't think your test file can give definitive answer.

The question still remains, which rendition of the signal would sound better and more correct? It’s ambiguous.

The question still remains, which rendition of the signal would sound better and more correct? It’s ambiguous.

Sounds better is probably more subjective. But I don't feel ambiguous for more correct. Whichever is more close to if you sit at the microphone position.

I think you mean spectrum analyzer.

Is there anything like the E30 with xlr out coming from Topping? I dont feel like touching SMSL stuff after recent past mishaps.

Hey may I check of the 6 available filters, which should I use? My setup is PC, Topping E30, JDS Atom and HD6XX.

Thank you!

Which one would be better as preamplifier with ncore power amp [NC250 from audiophonics for exemple] ? Or maybe another good dac with higher Volts output on xlr?

Which one would be better as preamplifier with ncore power amp [NC250 from audiophonics for exemple] ? Or maybe another good dac with higher Volts output on xlr?

Which one would be better as preamplifier with ncore power amp [NC250 from audiophonics for exemple] ? Or maybe another good dac with higher Volts output on xlr?

Does pre mode allow you to see sample rate or does this mode just fix the display to volume?

Does pre mode allow you to see sample rate or does this mode just fix the display to volume?

Does anyone have any detailed info on the quality or implementation of the volume attenuation in pre mode? Just concerned about bit stripping if using straight into a power amp... Thanks in advance all

Does anyone have any detailed info on the quality or implementation of the volume attenuation in pre mode? Just concerned about bit stripping if using straight into a power amp... Thanks in advance all

There is nothing wrong with connecting the E30 directly to the power amplifier.

It is superior to the analog volume control used in common Chinese audio equipment. There is no step noise even when the volume is raised or lowered.

There is nothing wrong with connecting the E30 directly to the power amplifier.

My E30 is still in its way and can not wait to try it in my system.

Mine is a few days away, but getting closer. I've been really impressed with the D30 that I bought a few months ago, I recently acquired a Rega Maia [Clamshell] power amp and just thought the E30 was worth a pop for the money, especially with its feature set. Potentially the E30 could replace a Rega Dac I've had since new, I'll be very interested to see how it competes. Hope you enjoy your E30 when you get the gear to use it!

Me too. But what makes it worse for me is that I can't even use my recently acquired speakers because I don't have anything to feed them with. They are just sitting there, looking pretty.

I was curious and actually thinking of asking what filter everybody else prefers last night but decided it would have a hard time getting noticed with the polarity discussion that's been dominating the thread lately. Filter preference is something you're just going to have to try for yourself to determine what you like. I like #2 and #4 but my preference doesn't mean someone else will prefer the same, in fact someone with exactly the same gear may even hate it. There are a lot of variables that could change your preference-various types of equipment, listening room layout and furnishings along with your hearing can all have an impact. I'm on day 7 with my E30 so my preference may change too. Be sure to let me know which filter you decide upon.

Have you thought about any particular power amp?

This was why I ordered the E30. I wanted one device that could adjust volume with a remote and feed the actives with a signal. Actives don't usually have a remote that you can use to adjust volume.

Not at all! The audible difference in your video was intriguing.

Okay, so I've gone ahead and gotten a 4-bar sample from Jack of Speed, and looped it a few times. Here is the download link. It's a 24-bit 44.1kHz FLAC, converted from the Tidal master and properly dithered.

• The first time it plays, it's in its original polarity.
• The second time is in inverted polarity.
• It plays ten more times. I chose by coin flip each time whether it would be in original or inverted polarity.

So, in theory, if it's indeed the polarity difference causing the change in sound, then the second time the loop plays should sound exactly like how it did before the DAC update. Would be interested in seeing if you can suss out which is which in the last ten loops, I'll show the answer in a bit!

12 +

This way, the analogue potentiometer is mostly out of the signal path, and the only adjustment will be through the DAC's digital output adjustment.

Bad plan. Or explain the technical aspect of your plan, how does a signal pass by an analog active speaker potentiometer?..

But never "always on" and volume up for both

You could turn the e30 on at full vol, turn on actives to loudest you'd want then just attenuate with dac volume.

But never "always on" and volume up for both

This is understandable ]. It is unclear only, I repeat, how the signal from the DAC bypasses the analog volume potentiometer of active acoustics?

Completely disappointed with the Shenzhenaudio Store via Aliexpress. I was sent the tracking code 43 days ago, and only today was it updated as "in transit to Brazil international unit" In other words, the order only left Singapore today, 43 days later.

Absurd, shameful.

Completely disappointed with the Shenzhenaudio Store via Aliexpress. I was sent the tracking code 43 days ago, and only today was it updated as "in transit to Brazil international unit" In other words, the order only left Singapore today, 43 days later.

Absurd, shameful.

ShenzhenAudio ships from Singapore? I thought it was China. If it is Singapore, I would be very interested since I'm based here.

I've been buying on Chinese websites for at least 6 years, I've bought more than 300 items, all kinds of things, from electronics that cost 3x the price of dac and, in all my experiences, I've never had any problems with the order, they are shipped Maximum 3 working days after payment confirmation.

Completely disappointed with the Shenzhenaudio Store via Aliexpress. I was sent the tracking code 43 days ago, and only today was it updated as "in transit to Brazil international unit" In other words, the order only left Singapore today, 43 days later.

Absurd, shameful.

Completely disappointed with the Shenzhenaudio Store via Aliexpress. I was sent the tracking code 43 days ago, and only today was it updated as "in transit to Brazil international unit" In other words, the order only left Singapore today, 43 days later.

Absurd, shameful.

I ordered mine through Amazon-Shenzhenaudio 10 days ago, tracking data was delayed vs what was displayed on Amazon [ie Amazon said it had shipped before the tracking data showed it to have been shipped]. My personal feeling is that they are sitting on orders until they reach an amount at which point they order more goods and ship them out, I doubt that shipping really takes that long and part of my conclusion of that is the 'suspicious' inconsistencies associated with the shown shipping dates. I don't really doubt that I will receive my order, but I feel some of the specifics of the shipping/ordering dates being reported are being fudged for the logistical/monetary benefit of the said company....either way it doesn't bother me overly.

Bad plan. Or explain the technical aspect of your plan, how does a signal pass by an analog active speaker potentiometer?..

They should be transparent about those stuff

EDIT: I was wrong about the specifics of digital volume control when say operating at 50% windows volume, here's a link that explains how you work out how much bit depth you lose from digital volume control when you turn it down below 100%: //thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/VolumeControl.htm

dB = 20log[Percentage/100]

Digital volume control always has some kind of loss of bits, but I think if the DAC is able to the volume control in something like 24bit or 32bit mode then in reality there is no perceptible bit depth lost to the user. I'm kinda suspecting that the DAC would do it's internal volume control based on 32bit, therefore you could run it at 50% volume and still retain a full 16 bits of volume information....correct me if I'm wrong on this for those more knowledgeable. Actually, it might not be a linear relationship, so perhaps even more bit depth would be retained at 50% volume for example. Welcome for people to chime in with proper knowledge on digital volume control vs bit depth. [Either way, 16bits of depth would cover your hearing range thresholds].

So which would be better. Volume pot at 50% on the active speakers with a higher volume level on the DAC, or the other way around?

I see. I had heard about bit stripping with digital volume control.

So which would be better. Volume pot at 50% on the active speakers with a higher volume level on the DAC, or the other way around?

Of course digital volume control lowers the effective SNR. So does an analogue attenuator. In both cases, you're attenuating the signal while the noise floor stays fixed [or, in the case of the analogue attenuator, goes up slightly]. Hopefully, in both cases, the level of the noise was too low to be audible to begin with. In the digital case, it will certainly remain inaudible. With a high quality analogue attenuator, it hopefully remain so too. With the digital volume control, you don't have to worry about channel level matching or cross-talk, etc.

I would set the analogue Pot at the maximum comfortable volume level, then use the digital volume control to attenuate further to the desired listening level.

Thanks very much for the reply. If I ever do get a preamp that enables me to run the E30 in pure DAC mode, what volume remote controllable amp could I use to feed the active speakers? Any recommendations?

Is there any real benefit of using a device like this emotiva over the E30 in preamp mode for someone who just wants a way to volume control actives with a remote?

But it does offer you a wealth of other inputs, a subwoofer output, a headphone jack, ...

Just for the volume control? No.

But it does offer you a wealth of other inputs, a subwoofer output, a headphone jack, ...

Thanks for the Interesting blind test here is what i got. Curious to know about the result 1 + 2 - 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 + 11 +

12 +

So it seems @mykeldg got 3/10 right, which indicates no discernable audible difference.

Interestingly enough @samsa PMed me his answers and he got 9/10 right! He said he heard a difference in the attack of the snare drums.

I think I have pretty well-trained ears, been mixing and producing music for 10 years, can ABX 320 OGG vs lossless, etc. but personally couldn't hear any difference in my setup.

I see. I had heard about bit stripping with digital volume control.

So which would be better. Volume pot at 50% on the active speakers with a higher volume level on the DAC, or the other way around?

Here it is:
View attachment 65295

So it seems @mykeldg got 3/10 right, which indicates no discernable audible difference.

Interestingly enough @samsa PMed me his answers and he got 9/10 right! He said he heard a difference in the attack of the snare drums.

I think I have pretty well-trained ears, been mixing and producing music for 10 years, can ABX 320 OGG vs lossless, etc. but personally couldn't hear any difference in my setup.

So why is this a "bad plan"? My technical wording was probably not correct. Are you saying feeding the active speakers' amps direct from the DAC in preamp mode via rca/XLR is a bad idea? Can you explain?

Your plan is to adjust the volume with E30. It doesn't matter what volume the active speakers are at. Again, there is no direct input to their power amplifier, so the signal will pass through two preamplifiers. Use DAC mode at maximum volume, then there will be only one conversion by the active speaker preamplifier.

Your plan is to adjust the volume with E30. It doesn't matter what volume the active speakers are at. Again, there is no direct input to their power amplifier, so the signal will pass through two preamplifiers. Use DAC mode at maximum volume, then there will be only one conversion by the active speaker preamplifier.

As we can see from the manual, using DAC mode does not allow for volume adjustment. This would need to be done via another device, such as a PC or the active monitors analogue dial. I don't think my TV attentuates it's optical output signal, so I can't use DAC mode if I want to use the remote from my seat to change volume.

As we can see from the manual, using DAC mode does not allow for volume adjustment. This would need to be done via another device, such as a PC or the active monitors analogue dial. I don't think my TV attentuates it's optical output signal, so I can't use DAC mode if I want to use the remote from my seat to change volume.

As we can see from the manual, using DAC mode does not allow for volume adjustment. This would need to be done via another device, such as a PC or the active monitors analogue dial. I don't think my TV attentuates it's optical output signal, so I can't use DAC mode if I want to use the remote from my seat to change volume.

Just use the digital volume control and be happy. You won't lose any noticeable bit depth, although signal to noise ratio decreases as you lower the volume, so just do what was suggested earlier, put volume control on back of speakers at the level which is the max listening level you'd ever want to hear when DAC is at 100% volume, then just control the volume of the music & movies by using the DAC remote control volume. That's what I'm gonna do. [I edited one of my earlier posts to explain a bit more about any bit depth loss, along with an external web link].

I'm happy with that setup. That's what I am going to do, unless my LG can adjust the output level [I'm pretty sure it can't]. I just didn't understand the other reply, unless the poster thought I was going to use a PC with the E30.

How would I then control the volume? I'm not going to get up and change the volume of the speakers each time I want to.

In "DAC" mode, can the system volume be controlled via remote?

You are missing the meaning of the power amplifier in your reasoning, hence the misunderstanding. It is quite clear that your active acoustics do not have an input to the power amplifier. You were just worried about the sound quality with the E30 in pre amp mode, so this input was mentioned as the highest quality. Control the volume calmly with the E30 remote, while passing an extra preamp of active acoustics at its comfortable volume will be difficult to notice.

BTW, thank you for the volume control tip.

If I were to add another preamp to the mix with volume control[with the E30 in DAC mode], I assume this would be just the same. I would have to "calmly control the volume" just the same, no? My speakers are the Yamaha HS7s. I have never used active monitors, so excuse the ignorance.